8MP Team Game - The Axis team

[Telemecus]

Redmarkus5 - it is wonderful to get one of the great old pioneers of the team game to look at us here! I bet you never imagined the seed you planted would sprout fully so many years later!

If you see the team protocol we started developing on post 12 of this AAR tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=1 then you will see pretty much all of it is in response to the problems identified in Thunder in the East I and Thunder in the East II team games!

ORIGINAL: Redmarkus5
1. Espionage. Perhaps an approved spectator could be asked to pick one post per week from the oppositions AAR and share that with the other side? Just a thought.
2.Did you know there's a download able enigma machine with extra rotors etc free online? You can Google it. Could be fun to share the occasional key command or thought in an encrypted format.

Neogodhobo in the sign up thread for the 2by3+ team game had that exact idea - see post 78 here tm.asp?m=4340173&mpage=3

My problem with sharing bits of the AAR is you would then game the AAR - you could leave out valuable information. Either you would have to have rules saying what information the AAR had to include - or you could just ask for the information whether or not it was in the AAR. For example you could say give me a screenshot of the map in Area X - so there would be no way to game the information you are given. see post 153 here tm.asp?m=4340173&mpage=6

I am really interested in these ideas, and of creating a game within a game. However I would say most others are still only interested in playing the vanilla game but just in a team setting. So never say never, but you would need all on both sides of a game to want to do it.

[Crackaces]

Turn 62: The beginning of the end

From the German perspective, given the Soviet situation with low manpower I would think the best moves are a flexible defense. Keep the Germans burning up MP's and OOB while preparing for turn 70 and anticipated mud. The Soviet's had gained about 200,000 in manpower to this point, but the isolation of Guards units and eventual clean up of the pocket dropped the Soviets about 150,000 men total. More so precious units, or things to get into the Panzers way are being eliminated. It is quite true that many of these men will return to the manpower pool, but not as Guards units. (Although the Soviets cold not build units and fill the Guards units in the filed).

In my opinion, the Soviets diverted the Panzers for one turn but lost the stuff to keep them at bay.

[Crackaces]

This screen shot shows the end of the turn south of the Oka. Multiple Soviet Corps and divisions have surrendered. Speed bumps are up on the Oka river to burn up Soviet MP's, while keeping pesky Soviets from ZOC'ing the armor.

There are 2 major operational objectives for turn 63. One secure the Oka basin to stretch the line and protect the flanks. Second, and far more important, breakthrough to Penza. I suspect the losses this turn will make the line much more difficult to defend. My thought is that the Soviets will pull forces from the North and allow me to stretch the line. If this does not happen, I suspect there is not enough to hold back 2 concentrated Panzer Armies.

[Crackaces]

The first Tiger Tank Battle happens on turn 63!

Background: The Germans have fronted a large Soviet salient with the 4th Panzer Army. The purpose of this strategy is to simply keep the Soviets from retreating. The thought is that if the fortified ground is given up the infantry and armor will simply bore holes into the lines with hasty attacks. However, while the Soviets occupy good fortified ground -- it takes strong armor, support units, and sometimes a lot of airpower (ground unit attacks and ground support) to move the Soviets from key hexes.

The attack -- the primary purpose of the attack is to unhinge a strong Soviet position while temporarily isolating 3 Soviet Corps. The total activity can be deduced from the screenshot ... The parachutes bringing in supplies and one lone Soviet stack in the middle ..

[Crackaces]

TURN 63: Oka to Stalingrad

My comments from Turn 62 come to fruition on turn 63. The map below shows a huge Kessel forming. The 2nd & 3rd Panzer Armies have made a breakthrough toward Penza. The 4th Panzer Army has isolated units South of Stalingrad. The strategic goal is to isolate Saratov.

The small one hex pocket with 4th Panzer Army is quite apparent in this screen shot.

In my opinion, forces from the North needs to rail in and act as speed bumps to slow the Panzers down. A stratgic fexiable defense with armor positioned at the far reaches of the Panzer Division's MP's. The Soviets have different plans for turn 64. [:'(]

[Crackaces]

Turn 63: Gorky Air war ..

The Germans decide to have another go at Gorky. The battle starts with three fighter sweeps using airbase bombing - little is lost on either side. But on two bombing runs of Gorky the Germans find Soviet interception ineffective - the damage of the fighter factory increases to 49%. This is a disaster for the industry at Gorky. The Germans no longer have to build damage levels at the Gorky fighter factory, LW forces can easily top it up occasionally to keep it near 50% damage. Our Soviet opponents can leave it at that state producing effectively nothing - or bite the bullet and evacuate it.

Having bombed so many factories and seen them evacuate, Gorky is in effect de-industrialised. We know the Soviet side has left several AA brigades in the city which is a good move as they have had almost perfect predictability every turn our bombers will be there. In future that will not necessarily be so.

With hindsight trying to bomb Gorky's factories AND the nearby fighter base was trying to do too much on turn 62. This turn teh LW just concentrated on the factory, and in effect finished the job. In future LW fighters and bombers can engage the Soviet air platforms - but can choose to not do it over the AA flak of Gorky.

This turn we also started bombing the Kirov light tank factory.

The LW bomber force as a result will be going through a transformation.The focus is on building up Heinkel and Do217E-4 air frames and save it for a special mission - and so will not be as available in the next few turns. The Ju88A-4 will be the level bomber workhorse for now - although they will be joined by 7 Heinkel bomber groups who are withdrawing soon and with replacements off now have very few aircraft left.

With so many airgroups withdrawn or withdrawing, the Luftwaffe is noticeably less capable than it once was.

[Crackaces]

This turn also saw over 22 manual air swaps - a record number. The Soviet concentration on the Finnish fighters meant the one last remaining biplane fighter was taken out of our fighter groups - and in the pool will convert to a reconnaissance aircraft joining others to equip a new Finnish recon group. With so few strategic bombing targets left in the south, one Rumanian bomber group is being converted to a shorter range model more suited to ground support. The LW air pools management program has a lot of work to do preparing for the imminent start of Ju88D-1 and Bf109 exports.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

How did they loose 4 bombers from none in that fight?

[Crackaces]

The State of the LW:

German Fighters

20 Bf109E-3s were exported to Rumania at the start of the game. Most of the withdrawing fighter groups were swapped to Bf109E3s so that the number converted to fighter bombers was minimized. The LW have no E-3s left in the pool and one fighter group left with it, IIJG51 which withdraws on turn 70 and only has 7 aircraft left.

27 Bf109E-7s could have been exported to Slovakia which now has no airgroups and so would never have been used - but the LW prevented any from being exported. There are no E-7s left in the pools and only two fighter groups have it - IJG53 which leaves on turn 66 and has only 8 left, and IIIJG77 which leaves on turn 70 and has only 3 left.

Bar one stab of fighters awaiting an upgrade we have no fighter groups armed with the Bf10F-2 - there are a substantial number in the pool now where the Germans know they will never be exported so will remain there should the Luftwaffe need them in the future.

The remainder of the German fighter air groups have Bf109F4s, the longest range fighters the Luftwaffe will ever have, and Bf109G-2s. Potentially 49 G-2s could be exported now to Finland, and in 1943 58 to Rumania, 59 to Hungary and 15 to Slovakia. None will be exported so long as there are 19 or fewer in the pool. But from October 42 (turn 68) if there are enough F4s in the pool up to 42 will be exported to Hungary. Twin-seat fighter bomber groups with the ZG designation can be converted to Focke-Wulf single seat fighters or fighter bombers, or Me210 A-1 fighter bombers, and then converted to Bf109 single-seat fighter groups the following turn (and be converted back again). The plan is to do this over two turns. But even if all the fighter and ZG groups (apart from the 3 soon withdrawing with E types mentioned above) with F4 and G2 models, there will still be some left in the pools. This is a good thing - it shows that our fighter losses have been light. But it does mean some will have to be exported.

Hungarian fighters can at least be used over a wider geographical area than Finnish fighters. But Hungary has only 1 level bomber group to escort, Finland has 6. Hungary is also getting the more modern Heja II fighter whereas Finland is still making do with pre-war models including the Gladiator biplane. And the Soviet side knows it - they have spent the past two turns targeting them. With the G2 still in production and if German fighter light losses in the current campaign continue it is not certain that even if all German fighter groups were converted to G2 there would always be too few in the pools for exports - so it may happen in the end anyway whatever the choice. And finally the F4 is the longest range German fighter ever. With the Soviet air force keeping its distance we need our longest range fighters. It would be worse to see them export to the shorter range Hungarian variety. So when a choice is needed by turn 68, and the choice is to export the G2 to Finland. (However by keeping the pools of G2 as low as possible teh Germans might still be able to stop the full 49 going to Finland)

The Germans have been producing Focke Wulf fighters and fighter bombers for a while now but they have remained in the pool. In spite of being potentially better performers, their lower range in the current state of the air war makes them less useful. However they remain in the pools and will not be exported. When the air war flips and we are on the defensive, range will matter less to us and the Focke Wulfs will be invaluable.

German Dive (Tac) Bombers

None of these export until 1943. But we have been swapping our airgroups to models that do, and building our pools of models that do not.

German Level Bombers

Until now if there is only one He111H-4 bomber in the pool, it will be exported to be a Hungarian recon aircraft. And similarly any He111H-3 bomber in the pool will be converted to a He111H-4 bomber and then exported as a Hungarian recon aircraft in the same turn. So at the end of the turn for a while now we have made sure there are none of these left in the pool. But next turn is September 1942 when any Heinkels left in the pool will no longer be exported as a Hungarian recon platform. - The LW has successfully made sure none ever were or ever will be. (However 10 He111H-3s were exported to Slovakia at the start of the game). Similarly no Do17Z-2 or Ju86E-2s have been left for export- only one airgroup with a few of each of these models is left and they will be both be withdrawing soon.

For reasons discussed in a previous post we did allow the maximum 15 He111H-6s to be exported to Rumania. The LW now has substantial pools of Ju88 and Do217E-4, and some He111H-6 bombers, all of that will now be never exported. There are also some He177A-1 that will convert to He177A-3 - a conversion we want.

159 Ju88-4 bombers are scheduled to be exported to Finland, Rumania and Hungary in 1943. Our bomber groups were slowly being converted to Ju88A4s through automatic promotions. It remains to be seen if our level bomber losses are so high in the remainder of 1942 that none will ever be exported, or if they will be so low that some must be.

However with the 1942 strategic bombing campaign drawing down its commitment, some of the most experienced Ju88-4 airgroups are for the moment being converted to longer range Heinkels and Do217E-4s for the next stage in our campaign.

German Recon

9 Fi156C have been exported to Finland, 6 to Rumania and 6 to Slovakia. Potentially 76 in all can be exported but further exports have been prevented by keeping the pools low. Similarly exports of FW189A and Do17P-1 have been prevented. But from September 1942 (turn 64) Ju88D-1 could start to be exported to Hungary. For every 20 of these aircraft in the pools 1 will be exported - so long as we keep the pools below 20 for each type no more will be exported. Losses of German recon aircraft have been much higher here than in other games. By converting all other airgroups to Fi156c, FW189A and Ju88D-1 for now we are able to achieve this. (This game was started in v1.10 and so there is no distinction between recon and strategic recon). But all 3 models are still in production and if losses are lower then ultimately the Germans will have to choose to allow at least one type to be exported.

German Transports

The Germans as a team made a deliberate choice to keep as many heavy aircraft in the national reserve during the blizzard as possible to boost vehicle numbers. There where really no emergencies where the transports were needed. These aircraft have been not been used as expected. - and so many were left in the pool. This inevitably meant that the maximum 30 were exported to Rumania and 53 to Hungary. From now forward, there are no more exports of transports so the Germans do not have to manage their pools.


Altogether this turn alone the Germans had to make 22 manual air swaps as a result.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

How did they loose 4 bombers from none in that fight?

I suspect a bug ...

[Crackaces]

The Caucasus Mountains:

The screen shot below demonstrates the cat and mouse game in the Caucasus. The Germans have sent the cavalry to the rescue .. at least to start extending the MLR. The Soviet rail has been cut and thus no more units from the main body will join the fray .. but I suspect there are many more here the German recon missions have yet to discover.

SukHumi is a port and manpower of 10. It is isolated now and will fall next turn,

[Crackaces]

The below screenshot shows actually troop positions from turn 62. The key to capturing any strong defensive position is isolating that position from the LOC. This screenshot demonstrates the vulnerability of the rail lines going into Saratov. There are two very strategic hexes to capure and Saratov is cut from the rails. Actually, the whole Kessel is cut from the rails.

Very simply this is the strategic and operational plan that comes to fruition on turn 65.

[Crackaces]

The game is in a hiatus. The turn is in the Soviet court. M60 has done a great job of taking a pretty bleak game for the Soviets, and put on a defense from turns 55 to 65. The Soviets are 5 turns away from the anticipated mud, but the German hordes might be too much at this point. In five weeks the Kessel is likely sealed with some great number of Soviets within the pocket.

I have noticed that the Soviets have used their air force much better this go around, and the aircraft pools of modern fighters increasing because of this strategy. Fundamentally the Soviets are putting up a tougher fight in the air that might have started earlier. . I do think that taking the offense a couple of times too many hurt the ability to resist the onslaught of German Panzer divisions. The Soviets started this game at turn 55 way undermanned made worse with the isolation of elite units.

If a turn comes I will continue the AAR. Otherwise the game is in a pause mode for a bit.

[Crackaces]

The 8MP game is definitely over. I have supplied M60 with the German password. All the files are stored on a Mega server.

I do appreciate M60 taking this on for 10 more turns. The main reason for not continuing is the lack of manpower. This was my thought that the lack of manpower would led to a Soviet collapse . The impetus started way before M60 took over. I will post the final part of the AAR over time.

[xhoel]

Bravo to the both of you for continuing the game and bravo to you for still updating the AAR with what was happening. It was a really interesting game/AAR. Kudos to M60 for taking command in such a difficult situation and making the best of it. I hope we still get to see some screenshots from the game in terms of Production, losses, general situation map, TOEs and such.

Cheers to the both of you!

[A21]

I have followed this for so long it is perhaps better called an epic saga than an AAR. I am going to be a bit tearful when there is no new development in 8MP to pick up on when I visit in future. Congrats!

[Crackaces]

In corporate America there are many games to entice employees to think out of the box. Turn 63 represented a big move for AGN. Basically the units in AGN have been replaced with weaker units that have been depleted. Now the HQ have detached their units to the Finns and Italians ..and now AGN will take change of the Kessel .. at least the front of the Kessel ..

[Elessar2]

Just some questions from a kibitzer: as the above map indicates a HUGE gap had developed in the southern line. Why didn't any Axis forces charge into said gap, and, likewise, why didn't the Russian side seem too terribly worried about said gap (as in try to rebuild a line there)?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Elessar2
a HUGE gap had developed in the southern line. Why didn't any Axis forces charge into said gap, and, likewise, why didn't the Russian side seem too terribly worried about said gap (as in try to rebuild a line there)?

There was a debate earlier on this - see tm.asp?m=4250683&mpage=35 from post 1025 onwards and in particular post 1032 on from M60A3TTS. I know I would try to at least keep a few cavalry units within a turns march of any part of the front - but it is not unusual to see other games leaving gaps in these areas. There is just not a lot that is important in the area. There is no industry, very few towns and many of those towns do not even have a population of 1 but zero. It is a semi-desert. There is some value in cutting the through rail line to Baku, or getting the Astrakhan and Guriev ports. But otherwise between Astrakhan and Dagestan there is nothing worthwhile there. So if you had to choose putting a unit there - or in the critical battle to close/keep open the Kessel developing on the Volga, the priority would be on the Volga.

Historically for large parts of the war there were not established fronts between the opposing sides in Eastern Karelia south of Murmansk either. Of course leaving areas of the map without an established front can give the enemy the chance to outflank the front lines you have established, as Rommel found often in the desert war by going around the lines from the south. But if you notice the enemy massing units for doing that you can bring in units to counter it. So you can have an equilibrium with neither side going for an open flank.

The other thing to remember as well as being semi-desert is that the centre of the Caucasus is a long way from rail and supply for both sides. And more so for the Axis side if it has yet to repair the rail.

I guess Crackaces and M60A3TTS can fill in the particulars from this game. But it is not unusual or off the wall.

[Telemecus]

To my dear former colleagues of 1st Panzer Army

Have you seen this man? EwaldvonKleist (AKA "The Other One") was last reported as having been reassigned to a penal company in Stalingrad which on turn 63 you have surrounded. He is wanted for copyright fraud, improper use of my image and impugning the honour of a German officer.
[center][/center]
He has made spurious claims to some common ancestry. As you can see he has attempted to approximate his looks to mine. But on closer inspection it will become apparent that someone so ugly could never come close to my handsome good looks. If caught he is to be brought to me immediately.

Generaloberst Ewald von Kleist commander of XXXXVI Panzer Corps
(The Real One)