Missles are capable of Friendly Fire, why not other weapons?

Intruder · Post by **Intruder** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:58 am

Just wondering. I would love to see beam and cannon weapons also capable of commiting friendly fire. Seems logical that if missles can do it, why not the other weapons. Any opinions?

Yossarian · Post by **Yossarian** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:12 am

What I've noticed about missles and friendly fire is that they seem to do less damage when striking an allied Titan. This implies (to me, at least), that the reason for missles being unique in this regard is that every attack consists of multiple projectiles, allowing for the possiblity of half (?) of your warheads striking another hex occupant.

Intruder · Post by **Intruder** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:44 am

Hmmm, still if one type of weapon can miss the target and hit a friendly, then every weapon should be subject to the same laws of physics.

aquietfrog · Post by **aquietfrog** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:30 am

Intruder wrote:Hmmm, still if one type of weapon can miss the target and hit a friendly, then every weapon should be subject to the same laws of physics.

every other weapon is a direct fire weapon, so it has to go through a straight line. with that in mind, the angle of fire should be calculated just to see how far a shot would go. a shot fired at an angle perfectly parallel to a perfectly flat map would go indefinitely in the direction of that shot, so you can get friendly fire, if you stand behind some titan.

anyway, i don't think it's such a good idea. just think of friendly fire to the head from a tesla. it's funny until it happens to your jock.

friendly fire from missiles is the drawback from being able to fire indirectly. that sounds fair to me.

Intruder · Post by **Intruder** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:27 am

aquietfrog wrote: anyway, i don't think it's such a good idea. just think of friendly fire to the head from a tesla. it's funny until it happens to your jock.

friendly fire from missiles is the drawback from being able to fire indirectly. that sounds fair to me.

See, I think that that would be great! I mean it serves no purpose, let alone being consistent,that one weapon system can hit friendlies while anothers cannot. Its like saying, this bow and arrrow may hit you because it is fired indirectly, but this machine gun absolutely will not just because we are aiming. It just doesn't make sence. No weapons system ever created will be 100% incapable of friendly fire. To me, adding this would only strengthen the believability and tactical possibilities of WS. Think of it, you have a Titan engaged in Melee combat and he is in a pitched battle. Farther away, sitting atop a hill the PG of your other mech is aiming at your enemy. He has aimed for the head of the Titan, but he is cautious of firing because both of the duelling Titans are severely hurt. An errant blast could easily kill your mate. What do you do??? Take the risk and fire or ease your finger off of the trigger and wait for your squad mate to disengage? All I see are the possibilites that such an addittion could bring. Many people here talk about the great fun they get from the uncertainty of the game, will my Titan restart in time? Will I survive the ejection? etc.. This would only add to the immersion of the player into the uncertain and harsh world that is WS. Sorry bout the length, I just feel very strong about this.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:13 am

Intruder wrote:See, I think that that would be great! I mean it serves no purpose, let alone being consistent,that one weapon system can hit friendlies while anothers cannot.

Please think twice. If I have a scatter gun (sawed off shotgun) the chane of friendly fire is much bigger than with a pistol. The ratio for missiles doing friendly damage is the same.

Intruder · Post by **Intruder** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:42 pm

LarkinVB wrote:Please think twice. If I have a scatter gun (sawed off shotgun) the chane of friendly fire is much bigger than with a pistol. The ratio for missiles doing friendly damage is the same.

Yes I realize this, but in your example the pistol does have a chance to hit, but the shotgun is very much more lekely to cause FF. However in the game there is 0% chance of that pistol hitting any friendlies.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:43 pm

Hmmm, notice a hex is 333m in diameter.

Things have to be seen in perspective. Trust the kreators. It's not like this game is brand new, it's been in the works for a *long* time.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:44 pm

Intruder wrote:Yes I realize this, but in your example the pistol does have a chance to hit, but the shotgun is very much more lekely to cause FF. However in the game there is 0% chance of that pistol hitting any friendlies.

Oh boy, I fear it will be a long thread.

I tried to explain that one weapon system can have 0% for FF and others >0 %.

Weapon : Pistol
Range : 5m
FF : 0%

Weapon : Scattergun
Range : 5m
FF : 25%

You said if one weapon has a chance of FF than all should have. I say : Not true.

The game will assume that titans in the same hex will NOT embrace all others but will be scattered in a 333 diameter area. For game design it is important that I try to mix realism with balance and fun. I'm not going for just one or the other.

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:33 pm

While I will tell you that your logic is flawed if you attach 0% to the chance of friendly fire for any weapon, Larkin, I will strongly agree that you don't need to change anything, as I suspect it would take a LOT of coding to add resolving that every single missed shot goes somewhere.

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:45 pm

Coding is NOT the limit here. If players *really* want to I can code FF dependant on the difference on what you scored and what you needed. So an easy formula could be to take 1/20th of the difference for any chance to hit someone else in the hex.

Expl.: You are firing at 30% to hit your AC7. You roll 91%. The chance for FF would be (91 - 30) / 20 = 3%

I'm still not convinced though as I have the vision of scattered titans in 333m diameter. Missiles with multiple projectiles and no straight line of fire seem more appropriate for FF than any other weapon. As of now only a small part of missiles will ever hit in FF which is different for single projectile weapons.

Oppinions ?

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:49 pm

Rebel Yell wrote:While I will tell you that your logic is flawed if you attach 0% to the chance of friendly fire for any weapon

Why ? Its just statistics, right. I wanted to prove that two different weapons can have 0% and > 0%. 0.8% is still 0% for game mechanics.

So if I give a pistol to a trained marksman he might do FF at 0.5% but that doesn't matter as he would do >= 1.0% with a scatter gun. I can see no fault in the logic. I ask for enlightment.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:51 pm

Fine as it is.
Next, we'll be having CC weapons capable of FF too...

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:19 pm

LarkinVB wrote:Why ? Its just statistics, right. I wanted to prove that two different weapons can have 0% and > 0%. 0.8% is still 0% for game mechanics.

So if I give a pistol to a trained marksman he might do FF at 0.5% but that doesn't matter as he would do >= 1.0% with a scatter gun. I can see no fault in the logic. I ask for enlightment.

Ok, lets open up the can of worms.

When you are talking about friendly fire, or hitting anything other than the intended target, you are talking about percentages that cannot be close to zero.

First, we'll discuss friendly fire within the hex. Yes, its over a 333m hex, but if you've ever played any version of online Mechwarrior, you can visual shooting at huge, moving targets, albeit in an enormous area. Mechs pass in front of you just as you pull the trigger. It definitely happens. For the marksman with a pistol, a 6 foot man would be in a hex of just under 50m diameter, proportional to a titan of 13m height in a 333m hex. Do you really think that there is so negligible a chance of hitting a friendly within a 50m space while moving, and under the adrenaline of also possibly being shot at? Of course not. Anyone who has ever served in the armed forces and been through actual combat will tell you its not a negligible chance. You also have to factor in that, if you are in the center of the hex, there is only about 1/6th of the total hex that your "arc of fire" can effect, so if friendlies are in that space, the chance is even higher. Whereas, if you are in the corner of the hex, roughly 5/6ths of it is covered by your arc of fire.

Now let's talk about what the real game problem is with having friendly fire. You have certainly forgotten more about coding than I will ever know, so maybe its not that hard, but for every single missed shot, it has to go somewhere OUT TO THE RANGE LIMIT OF THE WEAPON. Now we are talking about whether it hits a friendly or enemy titan in any hex in the direction of the shot, out to max range. This is not a linear progression through the target's hex either. Since your titan has an arc it can fire all through without changing facing, it is theoretically possible for the miss to pass, linearly, through any any of that arc. Now, I'm not talking about the whole arc, just a line of hexes in whatever direction in the arc that the missed shot traveled through, but that is still, potentially, a great number of hexes.

Anyway, I will say again, imho, nothing needs to be changed.

rosary · Post by **rosary** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:27 pm

LarkinVB wrote:Coding is NOT the limit here. If players *really* want to I can code FF dependant on the difference on what you scored and what you needed. So an easy formula could be to take 1/20th of the difference for any chance to hit someone else in the hex.

Expl.: You are firing at 30% to hit your AC7. You roll 91%. The chance for FF would be (91 - 30) / 20 = 3%

I'm still not convinced though as I have the vision of scattered titans in 333m diameter. Missiles with multiple projectiles and no straight line of fire seem more appropriate for FF than any other weapon. As of now only a small part of missiles will ever hit in FF which is different for single projectile weapons.

Oppinions ?

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:21 pm

I think Rebel Yell needs to think twice too. Heheh.

tarendelcymir · Post by **tarendelcymir** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:24 pm

I'm of two minds about the idea. On the one hand, I think it would be pretty cool to have to worry about hitting your allies with any kind of shot, not just missiles, making it extremely realistic. On the other hand, I wonder if it wouldn't end up being just TOO realistic for new jocks. When you're got a low skill with the weapon, you'd be that much more likely to blow the head off your buddy instead of the opponent. It's bad enough when you're just starting out and can't seem to hit the broadside of the barn from twenty paces, but to add in beams and cannon shot crashing into your teammates...ouch.

So, I think in the end, while the idea is appealing to me as a veteran, I think it might be a little too off-putting to newcomers who already are struggling with game basics and mechanics.

Rebel Yell · Post by **Rebel Yell** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:43 pm

Thorgrim wrote:I think Rebel Yell needs to think twice too. Heheh.

*Thinks twice*

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 10:47 pm

Ok. Decision is made. No FF for other weapons than missiles. I added a bonus for friendly fire calculated by the difference between what was needed and what was rolled.

MahaROGa · Post by **MahaROGa** » Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:56 am

LarkinVB wrote:I added a bonus for friendly fire calculated by the difference between what was needed and what was rolled.

So it isn't currently using that? It's currently (r2.0.0) just a straight percent chance that missles that MISS will hit another target in the same hex?

I like the possibility of missles hitting a target other than the intended target, but it seems like this happens very frequently. Currently "missle misses" and explosions are my main reasons for avoiding having more than one titan in each hex. Last night the AI was frequently getting bonus hits because he was missing his primary target (by a mile) but then hitting another one of my titans that also happened to be in that hex. It seems that he had a better chance of hitting the titan that he had not targeted than the one that he had targeted.

Maybe the base chance of hitting another titan in the same hex should be dependant on how many titans are in the hex. Each hex can hold 9 titans (IIRC) so if there are 9 titans in a hex and one of them is missed by a missle volley then there would be a 100% chance of hitting one of the 8 others. where if there were only 2 titans in the hex it would only be a 1 in 9 or 1 in 8 chance of hitting the other one.

JMHO...