Army Group South

[xhoel]

Can someone please explain to me why Army Group South only splits when certain conditions are met (eg when the 3 cities are captured) or in March 1943? Why doesn't the Army Group split at the start of the summer offensive?

What is the rationale behind such a decision? Why does the Axis player have to jump through the hoops to receive an Army Group that was created before the beginning of Fall Blau?

Cheers!

[Telemecus]

Guessing at the developers rationale they wanted the split to only occur when you actually started a campaign into the Caucasus - and not by some fixed date which may be off from when you actually do, and not if you go elsewhere. So rather than triggering on a fixed date they invented this condition which they think would only be met at the start of a campaign into the Caucasus. Only a guess though?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Why does the Axis player have to jump through the hoops to receive an Army Group that was created before the beginning of Fall Blau?

Just rechecking the history, even though it was planned for before the start of Fall Blau, the army group split did not happen until quite a bit after Fall Blau started?

[xhoel]

I recall that AGS was split in mid July. I still don't get the rationale behind this. The split still happens at a fixed date if you don't have those 3 towns, it just happens in 1943, which makes it bizzare. Why not just get the split in mid July?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Why not just get the split in mid July?

I suppose the reverse question is what happens if it is mid July and you have not entered the Caucasus? Let us say the grand offensive is to Moscow in 1942? You could argue that would still justify another army group in 1942. But my guess is the developers are saying if you do not geographically widen the front into the Caucasus in 1942 then you should not get another army group.

[chaos45]

I believe the change was made because the patch team was finding the German player/games consistently ahead of historical in ground gained in 1941 and getting access to a new Army group much earlier than its historical activation date so they put the condition in to make it harder/more historical in its activation timeline. As this new AG allowed for a better German command and control in the winter of 1941 and a basically perfect command structure by summer 1942 instead of it needing to be set up in mid to fall 1942 as per historical.


If I remember right you used to just have to take Rostov or some such, but the change was made ages ago so my memory is foggy on it.

[Zug]

I recall that AGS was split in mid July. I still don't get the rationale behind this. The split still happens at a fixed date if you don't have those 3 towns, it just happens in 1943, which makes it bizzare. Why not just get the split in mid July?

This.

I believe the change was made because the patch team was finding the German player/games consistently ahead of historical in ground gained in 1941 and getting access to a new Army group much earlier than its historical activation date so they put the condition in to make it harder/more historical in its activation timeline.

Not sure what you mean since it's still tied to the German advance. In my very first German campaign I got it in September 1941. I don't see your point about making it harder to get? WitE is a great game, but some of the design decisions are odd.

If I remember right you used to just have to take Rostov or some such, but the change was made ages ago so my memory is foggy on it.

Now it's Rostov and the three little towns adjacent. Unless it's been changed in the past few months?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Zug
Now it's Rostov and the three little towns adjacent. Unless it's been changed in the past few months?

I think you do not need Rostov - just Azov, Bataysk, and Manych.

AFAIK that was the way it was when the game was first published and it has never been changed. (The other trigger date has changed though to avoid a bug rather than any balancing issue.)

[xhoel]

The rule is what Telemecus said, you have to have those 3 towns in order to get the split. You don't need Rostov itself.

@Tele: I get your rationale. Why get the split when you are going for Moscow but if we are arguing like that, why get the split on a fixed date in 1943, when the Axis could only conduct very concentrated offensives as shown by Operation Zitadelle?

I would still argue that by 1942 the Axis forces in the East were much bigger than in 1941 (at least in terms of formations fielded). The Hungarians went from having an Expeditionary Corps to deploying a full field army and the same thing was done by the Italians. Not to mention the arrival of so many new German divisions. It would make sense in my eyes to get the split in mid July 1942, which would help alleviate the terrible overload that AGS has to deal with.

[Zug]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

I think you do not need Rostov - just Azov, Bataysk, and Manych.

Didn't realize that Rostov itself wasn't needed, fair enough. But it would be rare someone would take the other three and not Rostov itself I reckon.

AFAIK that was the way it was when the game was first published and it has never been changed. (The other trigger date has changed though to avoid a bug rather than any balancing issue.)

A few comments indicated it had been changed along the way, but being late to the game I didn't know the patch history. Thanks for the info.

The creation of Army Groups A and B were partly due to the number of units that fell under the command, though I think the main reason was the fact that AGS was attempting to go for two divergent targets -- Stalingrad and the Causcasus oil fields. They were considering yet another Army Group, to fall under Romanian command, but obviously that never got beyond the planning stages.

Personally I like this mechanic, and I like the trigger. Sorting your command structure as an Axis player is high priority, and to get it in fall of 1941 is quite pleasant indeed

You can argue that it's ahistorical, which clearly it is, but I would counter that the entire Russian side after turn 1 is ahistorical so I don't mind a bit of whimsy when playing Axis.

[Colbert]

In my game I surrounded Rostov and got the army group split, but had to wait turns for the isolated units in the urban hex to decay before I could take them. You are right you have to take Rostov on the way but can get the split a few turns before Rostov falls.