Skip bombing

[mogami]

Hi, I'm not sure if Kates can skip bomb or not. I know they will not if target is in normal range. I'll have to set up an attack at extended range.
Vals (and other DB) climb (or dive) to between 7k-10k before making their divebomb attack (I'm not sure of precise altitude)

Non attacking altitudes set by player have impact on their relation to friendly escort fighters and enemy interceptors.

I think it is best to set escorts no more then 3k above bombers they are escorting. (default altitude for torpedo planes is 5k so their escorts should not be set higher then 8k. Divebombers default is 10k so their escorts should not be above 13k and level bomber default is 6k so escorts should stay below 9k.

There are players who set 20k as upper limit (saying high altitude flying was not possible in UV time frames) But if bombers are set higher then enemy fighters can fly they avoid Air to air (and accuracy drops)
below 6k level bombers suffer added morale loss.

[Curval]

If you're criticising the manual for not being clear enough then I am with you on that...

But if you want to know how to skip bomb with Val - then I am telling you that it would be totally useless, anyway, manual or no manual...

O.

I am criticising the manual, not you man...sorry about the jab.

I honestly defer to your knowledge about Vals in real life...thing is, though, this is a game and in order to win it you have to follow its rules which do not necessarily coincide with reality.

[mogami]

Hi, I know there has been a long debate over skip bombing. If it were possible I would not use it for divebombers. They are acurate enough using the safer divebombing routine. Skip bombing requires a higer experiance then divebombing or normal level bombing. Since I hate to lose trained pilots I'd rather not risk them. Some people feel otherwise. I'm certain there are conditions where I might consider "just this once" ordering a skip bomb attack. (of course then my other half would say "good enough to skip bomb is good enough for a normal attack")

I think the prime aircraft type to benifit from skip bombing is the B-17
Due to the limited number of replacment aircraft and the amount of time required to train these groups I sheldom if ever employ them in naval attack) The B-17 and B-24's have a much more important job and can not be wasted.

You have to decide if the improved results are worth the added loss and down time. (After 1 day of skip bombing the group will need to be stood down)

Skip bombing, you need experiance for it to work and if you have the experiance you don't really need to use it.

[Bodhi]

It helps to read the 2nd page of a thread befoe commenting! That's if you realise there's a 2nd page.

[spence]

Hello all:

Skip bombing was developed to improve the efficiency of Allied MEDIUM BOMBERS in the antishipping role. It increased the % of hits from 5+/- % to roughly 45%. It proved most useful against merchant ships and minor combattants with low antiaircraft capability.
Recognizing that the attacking aircraft were flying directly into the muzzles of the defending guns and closing to point blank range at that, the B-25s and A-20s first training with the method were jury-rigged with additional fixed M2 .50 cal MGs (and other surplus weaponry) to allow the pilot to try to suppress the enemy FLAK on his run in. In the B-25J these improvisations were incorporated into the production run a/c. But in general the method was not employed against large combattants with lots of AA guns. :p

[Tristanjohn]

Hello all:

Skip bombing was developed to improve the efficiency of Allied MEDIUM BOMBERS in the antishipping role. It increased the % of hits from 5+/- % to roughly 45%. It proved most useful against merchant ships and minor combattants with low antiaircraft capability.
Recognizing that the attacking aircraft were flying directly into the muzzles of the defending guns and closing to point blank range at that, the B-25s and A-20s first training with the method were jury-rigged with additional fixed M2 .50 cal MGs (and other surplus weaponry) to allow the pilot to try to suppress the enemy FLAK on his run in. In the B-25J these improvisations were incorporated into the production run a/c. But in general the method was not employed against large combattants with lots of AA guns. :p

Theat's about right.

The B-17 first tested it, then General Kenney (along with his aide Maj. William Benn) remodeled a bunch of B-25s with, as you say, .50 calibers in the nose (eight of them) and used this technique on a large scale for the first time at the Battle of the Bismarck Sea. The results were devastating to the Japanese transport convoy attacked.

The bombs used a five-second delayed-action fuze, the object being to drop them from an altitude of 50 feet, let them skip along the water for about 100 feet and then arm the fuze when the bomb struck the side of a ship. The bomb would then sink below the waterline and all being well blow out the hull, much the same as a torpedo would. And it worked to a degree. (The same principle as Dam Busters.)

After the Bismarck action the Allies used this less as it was agreed suitable targets were not always available (as you noted targets with lots of AA were not suitable, though B-25s at the Bismarck are said to have shot hell out of whatever they strafed, bow to stern) and it was also assumed the Japanese would find a counter. I'm not sure the Japanese ever did, as by that time they were on the run big time with few resources to counter anything with in general. The Allies used this technique with torpedo planes as late as 1944 I believe, perhaps beyond, I can't recall. I haven't read anything with regard to using dive-bombers for this, and I tend to doubt it.

If the A-20s were ever used in this role it comes as a surprise, but as you cite this plane I'll believe it to be true. There's no real reason why it wouldn't work with them.

I also didn't know that Japanese had this ability in the game. If so I consider that an error.

[mogami]

Hi, I think UV does increase the hit rates for Japanese planes attacking below 100. However just making 100 the attack altitude will not make Japanese planes skip bomb. Japanese Level bomber AC that have a normal range load out of torpedo's will always carry the torpedo. (and climb to 200 during attack) At extended range where torpedo is replaced by iron bomb I think they get a benifit. (not sure if it is skip bombing)
Airgroups have to have at least a 75 exp to fly skip bomb missions.
(If you have airgroups set to 100 feet and they are not flying this might be why. (All the pilots set to go on a mission have to be above 75 not group avg)
To be perfectly clear. AC that fly missions at 100 feet and with pilots below 75exp do not get skip bombing bonus. They might bomb better but because of AA and morale hits they might bomb worse (or break off attack without bombing) but they do not skip bomb

[spence]

As best I can make out the first planes that tried skip bombing were B-17s. Due to their low forward firepower they did this at night by the light of the moon or flares. Then Gunn started strapping 4 x .50 cals to the nose of the A-20s available for flak suppression. Kenney then ordered him to see what he could do with the B-25. At one point he wanted Gunn to see if he could get 20 x .50s into/onto the nose somehow. I guess that didn't work though.

The last big attack on the convoy in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea had several squadron of heavies at high altitude level bombing followed by a squadron of Beaufighters in line abreast strafing the convoy lenghtwise followed by a squadron of B-25s skip bombing from abeam followed by a squadron of A-20s skip bombing from abeam.

The B-25s got 17 hits out of 37 bombs dropped and the A-20s got another 11 hits out of 20 bombs dropped.

There's some nice shots of skip bombing attacks taken from A-20s of 89 Sqdrn at:

http:\\users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/new_guinea_operations.htm

[Tristanjohn]

As best I can make out the first planes that tried skip bombing were B-17s. Due to their low forward firepower they did this at night by the light of the moon or flares. Then Gunn started strapping 4 x .50 cals to the nose of the A-20s available for flak suppression. Kenney then ordered him to see what he could do with the B-25. At one point he wanted Gunn to see if he could get 20 x .50s into/onto the nose somehow. I guess that didn't work though.

The last big attack on the convoy in the Battle of the Bismarck Sea had several squadron of heavies at high altitude level bombing followed by a squadron of Beaufighters in line abreast strafing the convoy lenghtwise followed by a squadron of B-25s skip bombing from abeam followed by a squadron of A-20s skip bombing from abeam.

The B-25s got 17 hits out of 37 bombs dropped and the A-20s got another 11 hits out of 20 bombs dropped.

There's some nice shots of skip bombing attacks taken from A-20s of 89 Sqdrn at:

http:\\users.senet.com.au/~mhyde/new_guinea_operations.htm

Couldn't find anything at that site re A-20s and skip bombing. Sure it isn't somewhere else?

B-17s did first try this technique. That was at Rabaul.

As far as I know the skip-bomb hits were all recorded by B-25s at the Bismarck Sea. Your hit count agrees with mine, 28 out of 37 500-pound bombs that were skip-bombed found their marks.

The B-17s and A-20s went in at medium altitude. Major Paul "Pappy" Gunn, of course, commanded the B-25s.

I don't say that A-20s never skip bombed, I just don't know of this. If you can find a reference that states otherwise I'd be happy to read it, though.

[spence]

The caption to the two photos of ships which are being skip bombed says the pictures were taken from a USAAF Boston (aussie designation for the A-20).

The B-25 was preferred for the antishipping role due to its longer range and heavier bomb load.

The decisive attack on the Japanese convoy was carried out by the one squadron of B-25s and one squadron of A-20s that had been modified as antishipping aircraft up to that point. There are numerous web sites describing the attack. I just liked the pictures at the one I mentioned. There's another one with a series of pictures showing a pair of A-20s flying low over Rabaul Harbor - probably skip bombing - with one on fire, crashing and disintegrating. Didn't copy down the address though.