Question regarding Patrol Missions

[sven6345789]

1. investigate units outside the patrol area
-> This one I understand, since it is obvious

but

2. investigate contacts within weapons range

how does that work?

if the first option is on, do you need to click it? sounds redundant to me.

if the first option is off, how does unit behavior change?

[michaelm75au]

Option 2 would be used to keep the patrol with its patrol area, but if a contact comes in range of its weapons (while in the patrol area) it will attempt to investigate it - like a quick out/in

[michaelm75au]

Option 2 would be used to keep the patrol with its patrol area, but if a contact comes in range of its weapons (while in the patrol area) it will attempt to investigate it - like a quick out/in

[marksdoran]

So out of curiosity...

How does the code define "in range" -- are we talking within max book range of the longest ranged weapon or more like within practical range (meaning close enough that hit probability/Pk are some definition of "reasonable")??

If my patrol unit strays out of the box, what criteria are used for my unit to break off and return to the box?? For instance, I can imagine a contact turning and running once my patrol unit moves to intercept...

[KnightHawk75]

If my patrol unit strays out of the box, what criteria are used for my unit to break off and return to the box??

michaelm75au can give you the code specifics .. but here is my 2 cents.

If the contact is unknown and then becomes an enemy with-in range and you have both boxes checked, the enemy will get chased in the scenario you painted, at least until the enemy gets out of weapons range or the contact is lost, or fuel\weapons exhaustion etc.

This is why often you want to restrict your patrols missions (especially aaw ones) with Prosecution Area limits if you plan on using either or both options, especially in larger scenarios, and especially option 1. Without it you can get unexpected (but technically correct) behavior like a cap flight over the Virginia coast area flying down to Venezuela because some ship or long range radar detected an unknown contact there and you had option 1 checked.

A setup that works well in most cases and cuts down on undesired behavior will have both a patrol area, and a larger prosecution area overlapping defined, with both options checked. This allows your patrols to float around in their assigned patrol area, and investigate\engage anything detected outside it in the larger prosecution area as well, BUT to disengage once they hit the larger box boundary and head back to patrol area or another contact still inside the larger area, while ignoring things outside said larger prosecution area. Takes an extra minute or two of time setting up more ref points, but it's well worth it when you want to put some limits\containment around a patrol while ALSO using the flexibility that option 1 and\or 2 provide.

[exsonic01]

I'm also a noob, but I usually turn off both 'chase' check boxes, or only turn on check box for 'chase within missile range' only if it is extremely necessary.

Patrol AI commands planes to go to bogey and check if the target bogey is hostile or not. Then if it is hostile, it attacks. If you turn on those 'chase' check boxes for AAW patrol mission, planes will follow unknown bogeys in their radar, or within their weapon range, regardless of your reference zone or reference points.

Then, your AAW patrol planes will frequently explore through far far distance and some unfortunate ones will end up in the middle of enemy territory, while you were busy with other things. And then you will get mad by unexpected KIA message, and yells "what the hxxx are you doing there? Your patrol zone was over there, not over that line"

[KnightHawk75]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

I'm also a noob, but I usually turn off both 'chase' check boxes, or only turn on check box for 'chase within missile range' only if it is extremely necessary.

Patrol AI commands planes to go to bogey and check if the target bogey is hostile or not. Then if it is hostile, it attacks. If you turn on those 'chase' check boxes for AAW patrol mission, planes will follow unknown bogeys in their radar, or within their weapon range, regardless of your reference zone or reference points.

Then, your AAW patrol planes will frequently explore through far far distance and some unfortunate ones will end up in the middle of enemy territory, while you were busy with other things. And then you will get mad by unexpected KIA message, and yells "what the hxxx are you doing there? Your patrol zone was over there, not over that line"

Yup what you describe is exactly the problem that setting up Prosecution Areas for the patrol mission solve, with them you don't get AAW flights ending up all over the map, try it out. I know back in the 114.x and before days there was a bug or two with them but they got addressed and since then they've worked well preventing exactly what you and I have described.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75
Yup what you describe is exactly the problem that setting up Prosecution Areas for the patrol mission solve, with them you don't get AAW flights ending up all over the map, try it out. I know back in the 114.x and before days there was a bug or two with them but they got addressed and since then they've worked well preventing exactly what you and I have described.

I'm just mostly playing tutorial mission as a noob so I can't comment further with any certainty and experience.

But, during last mission of air tutorial, I saw F15s and 16s (with two chase check boxes checked) reached deep into Syrian side (like north of Lebanon and central Syria) to check if the bogey in front of them is Syrian or not. They engaged Migs and Sukhois too. Feels like they were hopping bogey to bogey (mostly within amraam range), just like police car searches for wanted guy in the random slow-moving vehicles.

But maybe my impression might be wrong, because I was busy to micromanage and test stealth fighters so could't check others closely. And I just let F15s and 16s freely play with what they have.

[marksdoran]

A setup that works well in most cases and cuts down on undesired behavior will have both a patrol area, and a larger prosecution area overlapping defined, with both options checked. This allows your patrols to float around in their assigned patrol area, and investigate\engage anything detected outside it in the larger prosecution area as well, BUT to disengage once they hit the larger box boundary and head back to patrol area or another contact still inside the larger area, while ignoring things outside said larger prosecution area. Takes an extra minute or two of time setting up more ref points, but it's well worth it when you want to put some limits\containment around a patrol while ALSO using the flexibility that option 1 and\or 2 provide.

That makes perfect sense. And in fact to expand on the concept it occurs to me that what you really might want is concentric areas where the overlap is tilted such that the bulk of the prosecution area outside the patrol area is shifted along the expected threat axis (if there is one).

It seems to me that for disciplined air CAP type jobs this may be a preferred best-known-method for setting up such missions; which is to say better than using the check boxes which manifestly are generating questions (witness this thread )...well, maybe.

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.

Code: Select all

 
  expected threat
         ^
         |
 
 -----------------
 |               |
 |               |
 | |-----------| |
 | |           | |
 | |           | |
 -----------------
 

[KnightHawk75]

ORIGINAL: marksdoran

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.

Code: Select all

 
  expected threat
         ^
         |
 
 -----------------
 |               |
 |               |
 | |-----------| |
 | |           | |
 | |           | |
 -----------------
 

Precisely.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75

ORIGINAL: marksdoran

Crudely, something like this where the inner box is patrol area and outer one is prosecution area.

Code: Select all

 
  expected threat
         ^
         |
 
 -----------------
 |               |
 |               |
 | |-----------| |
 | |           | |
 | |           | |
 -----------------
 

Precisely.

May I ask how to set up Prosecution Areas? Like you wrote, I think the reason why my patrols gone weird is absence of Prosecution Areas. How can I set this?

[thewood1]

There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

Aha, I got it, thanks

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: exsonic01

ORIGINAL: thewood1
There are a couple sections in the manual that give a pretty good description and process. Just do a search on "prosecution". In fact, I think its in a few of the tutorials also.

Aha, I got it, thanks

I would have thought that would be the first you would do.

[exsonic01]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I would have thought that would be the first you would do.

You mean, prosecution zone? Or read manual or play tutorial? I'm playing tutorials and I didn't even know there was a prosecution zone. I just started playing this game, like from last week. There are too much things to read and too many buttons to check and I just don't have enough time to learn that fast so... Manual is so big, that I couldn't finish them all, and even if I read them all, I would forget. Fortunately, I found some good YT channels thanks to some suggestions here, so I'm checking them part by part. I guess I'm still learning by asking questions and checking or trying one by one. In CMO point of view, I'm only a toddler and I wish I could try LUA scripting and scenario design some day.

[thewood1]

You don't have to read everything, but its a good idea to at least browse the manual. Adobe has a very good search function for PDFs, as do most PDF readers. A simple search would have answered your question.

My point is you are asking an awful lot of questions, which is cool. But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time.

[marksdoran]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

You don't have to read everything, but its a good idea to at least browse the manual. Adobe has a very good search function for PDFs, as do most PDF readers. A simple search would have answered your question.

My point is you are asking an awful lot of questions, which is cool. But checking the documentation on basic game functions before posting a question saves everyone some time.

You are right of course that the manual is a useful resource and PDF searching is also useful. In this particular case though "simple search" isn't really possible. The information about prosecution zones is scattered in a non-obvious ordering and placement through the text. Does it really make sense that some of the most descriptive text for this is in a release note for an ancient version tucked away in a back corner??

I know (being a dev myself) that sometimes it is hard to get documentation the love it deserves though

[thewood1]

Yes, if you just hit search a couple times, you find everything you need. Its exactly how I learned about it.

[thewood1]

So here is hit #2 on page 191-192 in the manual...

"To create a patrol mission:
1. Create/select at least three reference points on the map to
define the patrol area.
Command Modern Operations
192
2. Create a mission, select the patrol mission class and types from
dropdowns, type in a name and click the OK button which will
open the mission editor.
3. A shaded box is shown on the map depicting the patrol area.
A folded box or bow-tie shape is the result of the Reference
Points not being placed sequentially around the perimeter of
the desired area. It is best to use the right-control-click Define
Area function as it will drop four reference points in the
correct order.
4. If desired, create a prosecution area. Create/select a second
set of reference points, press the “prosecution area” tab, and
add/remove them as one would for a normal patrol area. In
order for the prosecution area to work, “Investigate Contacts
Outside Patrol Area” must be checked."

[thewood1]

on Page 192 here is the second set of hits...

"8. Set “Investigate Contacts Outside Patrol Area” If checked,
the units assigned to the mission will leave the patrol area to
investigate/identify nearby contacts. If unchecked they will
restrict their activities only to their defined area. If checked
with the mission containing a prosecution area, the units will
only investigate contacts inside said prosecution area."