Tyronec vs BrianG. 12.03

[tyronec]

Usual slugging match in the North and Center.

In the South last turn's pocket held so get those units eliminated.
Thanks to the two Corps railed down last turn get another pocket, a Guard Cav Corps among other things.
Don't know if am wise being so aggressive during the Blizzard but is certainly making for an interesting game.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Don't know if am wise being so aggressive during the Blizzard but is certainly making for an interesting game.

I would NEVER stop being aggressive, even in Blizzard. Never let an opportunity to surround and force a Soviet surrender go to waste. You have to keep cycling Soviet units to keep them respawning. That is what I do well into late 1943. It becomes a game of WHACK the Corps for me. I see a Soviet Inf Corps(or Mech or Armor Corps and lesser degree Cav Corps)on the front line I go out of the way to force a surrender on it. With BrianG being aggressive this feeds right into your strategy long term I would think since you have BOTH Leningrad and Moscow. I think you are doing wonderful and the Soviets will be hurting big time in a few months if you keep this up.

[tyronec]

Usual battles both ways across most of the map. Had 3 Soviet units surrender from normal battles, not sure why. Think they all had ZOC retreat paths and one one had been battered twice.

Main interest around the pocket. Soviets broke it last turn with a solid 2:1 attack. Have sealed it better but not feeling that confident, at least all my Panzers are well fueled up for next turn.

Penultimate turn of Feb. and full Blizzard, though guess the odds are I get one partial blizzard in March/April.

[eskuche]

What’s the exact fort level on Leningrad? You should be able to crack it with all three heavy howitzer SUs without needing to reassign pioneers. They’ll add an extra 130 or so fort cracking (so 4% of a level 4 fort), plus the extra from the final CV ratio. Defender is only at 5, so one delib attack from an average division should take it down at least 15% per attack.

[tyronec]

It was 4.96 I think the last time I looked.
There are only 3 units plus a fort and an HQ left in the two hexes I think, though the Soviets are now able to fly in enough supplies to keep them going.
Will maybe try that next turn, was thinking that their morale would be dropping 1 every turn but maybe that is not happening.
It is certainly a nuisance that it is holding out, that is 20 turns now since they were pocketed.

[chaos45]

4-5 months...is a long time but you have minimal forces reducing the pocket as well. Plus the soviets are still flying in supplies. Also the units are getting replacements from Leningrad if I remember right due to the changes or no? so they may not be losing morale due to replacements and supplies.

Stalingrad historically lasted over 2 months and its air resupply was pretty much garbage due to weather, soviet AA, and soviet fighters...historically speaking they never even came close to what the 6th Army stated they needed as a minimum amount of supplies...which when an Army comes up with a minimum number, that's not a best case...that's a hey we are already cannibalizing the force but this amount will at least keep us alive and fighting.

Now historically speaking all the manpower/civilians in Leningrad should be wiped out at this point for the rest of war not just damaged.

In the grand scheme of the things...Brian is going to be in for a very rough 1942 IMO.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

Plus the soviets are still flying in supplies. Also the units are getting replacements from Leningrad if I remember right due to the changes or no?

I am curious about that as well. What happens to manpower generated in isolated manpower centers?

[joelmar]

In the manual (21.1.9.5) it states that manpower in isolated manpower production center continues but at a lower rate than usual but added to separate pools available only locally.

Patch notes (v1.12.00 #33) then states that damaged manpower production now works like other factories with proportional diminution instead of all or nothing.

[Telemecus]

I certainly know isolated manpower centres contributed manpower in a separate pools before. So if v1.12 did not change that then it should work just like it always did.

[joelmar]

I haven't found anything in the patch notes saying otherwise

[tyronec]

A couple of assaults on Leningrad, 2 divisions with 6 pioneers + artillery.
The map shows a rifle division and a tank brigade in the hex but looks like they didn't fight.
Looks like the artillery is having almost no effect on the fortifications. At this rate is going to take a lot of moves to take the hex.

[eskuche]

You really have to commit hard. Either that amount over a lot of turns or even more firepower concentrated. The concentration helps because of the CV multiplier to eng/artillery. Don't want to clog up your AAR, but here's an example of my three attacks over a turn.

[joelmar]

@eskuche I agree with you. More men, more engineers, more hvy art.

Looking at your battle reports, makes me wonder what flammpanzers do against forts now. They were said to be efficient in cities and against fort levels... but in the new system which is based on blast*anti-armor which in their case equals 0 artillery value... actually, unless I'm missing something, their overall stats are below a .105 Howitzer, including the range!

so what is their role against forts and cities? Maybe they were always overrated in these situation? Or are they simply a very dangerous foe in battles at close range against infantry in higher fort levels, thereby creating more disruption? But that does nothing against forts levels if a 5:1 attack does not make a very big dent in a fort by itself.

[Telemecus]

I am guessing this turn is when the flamm SUs have left but before you get the flamms in some of the organic ToEs?

I notice there are no reserve activated on map - and a static siege is the perfect time to use them. It would be better to commit a whole army of units for the attack with reserve activators for a couple of turns than fewer units for a few months.

But with blizzard ending next turn I would save my troops for a proper assault in turn 38?

[tyronec]

Don't want to clog up your AAR

Your input is welcome !

I don't think the mass of troops really matters. You want enough to ensure a 1:1 result, because there is more chance of getting a full 1 level reduction that way. But what counts is the pioneers, they do about 0.2 of fort each.
It doesn't look like the artillery does much, all Axis artillery SUs seem to have an Engineer factor of 0 (maybe the siege units were better but they have gone).
That being the case I would have been better putting 6 pioneers in the HQ instead of artillery.

You don't get a 'WIN' for 2:1, not sure if the defenders get one for less.

I can't see any Engineer factors for the artillery on the equipment file, anyone know where to access it ?

[eskuche]

Check the newest patch notes. It’s no longer a flat extra reduction. Engineer and artillery are multiplied by the square root of the final CV ratio. That’s why I’m getting .10-.40 reductions per attack. Also, SUs might be hit by the refit engineering/artillery bug, so in 12.05 they could be 4x more effective. Outside of the heavy howitzers, the M18 gums have 12 artillery value apiece as well.

[joelmar]

Yes I think eskuche's battle reports results demonstrated his point pretty well.

Artillery now has an art value that is used by fort reduction calculations the same way eng values are used.

For the idea of having more men in the attack, normal troops have organic engineer values. So the more men and units involved in the attack, the more engineer value you get, even without engineers SU's involved. Having more than 1 HQ also helps in getting more artillery SU's to the battle. And with more men and artillery, you also kill and damage more men of the enemy, increase his fatigue with higher disruption, that wears him down. And your own troops suffer less.

Every little bit helps.

[chaos45]

Maybe try to use the German Siege guns? Standard howitzer BNs are only like 105mm guns. Morveal mentioned he increased the ability of the big German guns to reduce forts and you should have several units on the German side that 200mm+ guns.

Forts and against heavily defended fortified lines are were the size of your artillery matter abit more.

[Bozo_the_Clown]

I certainly know isolated manpower centres contributed manpower in a separate pools before. So if v1.12 did not change that then it should work just like it always did.

Leningrad is still alive but manpower from isolated manpower centers is 0. Does this look right?

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

I certainly know isolated manpower centres contributed manpower in a separate pools before. So if v1.12 did not change that then it should work just like it always did.

Leningrad is still alive but manpower from isolated manpower centers is 0. Does this look right?

That does not look right. Which begs the question why?

Normally when you have battles in a manpower centre it will leave a damage level. There is a different way damage levels affect manpower production depending if it is v1.12 or before. Was there a damage level and if so what was it? What version was that played on?