Upgrading the Units of a Minor

[ReinerAllen]

My friend and I are playing through a campaign when Spain joins the Axis. The Axis than expends the majority of his production points for one turn to upgrade Spain's land units and ships. Rather than upgrading minors, why can't technology and/or production points be given to allies?

Also, why is Spain considered a minor? It should be able to stand on its own (my humble opinion).

Comments are welcome.

[Bo Rearguard]

I've sometimes have wondered if it would be a good idea to allow Axis powers to "lend" MPPs to each other like the Allies do with Russia maybe with a cap set on it to limit abusing the privilege. Sometimes, Italy is starving for production while Germany is bumping up against force pool limits.

However, I don't have a problem with treating Spain as a minor power. The country was an economic basketcase after the devastation of the Spanish Civil War which is why Franco was very reluctant to offer much more than under the table assistance to the Axis powers.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Spain is connected to Germany, thus the MMPs. Now, Germany dishing Italy some cash, sure. Minus 15% usury + graft + corruption fee would work for once year gift. Tax deductible of course

[Elessar2]

I just wish the AI would upgrade its minor's units. Time & time again I run across Commonwealth ships with no upgrades, most commonly destroyers.

[Tulius Hostilius]

It makes sense that Spain is a minor in the game, often the country doesn't even enter in the war. Furthermore all the slots for majors are occupied.

But a trade route by land between Germany and Italy would make sense, we see that in the game “Strategic Command: World War I “, between Russia and Serbia, and between Germany and Austria-Hungary.

Can it be implemented in this one?

[Platoonist]

ORIGINAL: ReinerAllen

Also, why is Spain considered a minor? It should be able to stand on its own (my humble opinion).

Pretty much every major game title on the Second World War I've ever seen treats Spain as a "minor" power. Third Reich, World in Flames, Gary Grigsby's World at War to mention a few. This game just follows the established trend.

It's no slur on Spain, but she had been in slow decline as a major European player since the 18th Century with an ugly civil war in the 20th to boot. If you set up a WW2 global game and divided the nations among players not too many hands would go up to play Spain. Sometimes it's hard to find someone who wants to play backwards and divided China which just barely qualifies to be major power due to its sheer size.

[The Land]

On the whole the series is too generous with minors. It treats them all as industrialised nations able to use the same equipment and organisation as the corresponding Major and willing to give their entire industrial surplus to the war effort. Fine for some minors (Canada in WW2, Belgium in WW1...), sort of fine for some others (the Central European states in WW2), and entirely wrong for others (Spain in WW2, Greece or Bulgaria in WW1...)

[Xsillione]

Yep, an industrial modifier would be nice for the minors, 0 for the most well equipped ones (Canada and similar), making them able to reach the majors full tech level, -1 for most (Romania, Bulgaria, Greece and likes) making them able to only reach 1 level less than the major (so lvl 1 inf, if Germany has lvl 2), and -2 for the really backwards ones, so even if Afghanistan gets into the war, it won't produce current year tech from day one. Maybe some events and ways to improve this, so if you want, you can advance the likely -1 spain into 0, to get the most out of them, if you willing to pay for it.

[HamburgerMeat]

I think the series takes this into account by increasing the cost of upgrades for minors

[Tulius Hostilius]

ORIGINAL: Platoonist
It's no slur on Spain, but she had been in slow decline as a major European player since the 18th Century with an ugly civil war in the 20th to boot. If you set up a WW2 global game and divided the nations among players not too many hands would go up to play Spain. Sometimes it's hard to find someone who wants to play backwards and divided China which just barely qualifies to be major power due to its sheer size.

Off topic, we can almost say that Spain had at least one Civil War per century!

I would like to underline that the 10 existing slots for majors are all full.

ORIGINAL: The Land
On the whole the series is too generous with minors. It treats them all as industrialised nations able to use the same equipment and organisation as the corresponding Major and willing to give their entire industrial surplus to the war effort. Fine for some minors (Canada in WW2, Belgium in WW1...), sort of fine for some others (the Central European states in WW2), and entirely wrong for others (Spain in WW2, Greece or Bulgaria in WW1...)

I think that the trade of wolfram of Spain to Germany is well represented. It could be added the Portuguese trade with Germany. Those countries had huge positive trade balanced during the war, exporting everything they had, including food, while their populations had hunger.

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeatI think the series takes this into account by increasing the cost of upgrades for minors

True.

[Xsillione]

Not really increased cost, just the production cost reduction not applied. But in the early war that is quite small, yet the minors get all the fancy lvl 2 infantry stuff and even lvl 2 fighters/armors for Germany at the low cost al almost nothing, esp on the units that already exists. Very easy to have better Romanian and Bulgarian troops than italian, since italy needs to research and apply it with its own miniscule income.

[Tulius Hostilius]

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

Not really increased cost, just the production cost reduction not applied. But in the early war that is quite small, yet the minors get all the fancy lvl 2 infantry stuff and even lvl 2 fighters/armors for Germany at the low cost al almost nothing, esp on the units that already exists. Very easy to have better Romanian and Bulgarian troops than italian, since italy needs to research and apply it with its own miniscule income.

Also true, on the other side it is often quite difficult to have the Indian infantry on a similar level than some British minors.

[eightroomofelixir]

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius
Also true, on the other side it is often quite difficult to have the Indian infantry on a similar level than some British minors.

In my current game I saved DEI from Japanese attacks. As for now, DEI has a uber fighter unit that can take down a part of Japanese air force single-handedly because of British level technology, while Indian fighters are in danger of being eliminated during any escort mission.

Realistically speaking, UK would probably upgrade Indian forces first rather than care about what's left in Indonesia.

[Tulius Hostilius]

ORIGINAL: eightroomofelixir

In my current game I saved DEI from Japanese attacks. As for now, DEI has a uber fighter unit that can take down a part of Japanese air force single-handedly because of British level technology, while Indian fighters are in danger of being eliminated during any escort mission.

Realistically speaking, UK would probably upgrade Indian forces first rather than care about what's left in Indonesia.

Indeed, India can easily be changed to UK’s minor in the editor, but I don’t know how that would change the game balance. A lot, I would imagine….

[eightroomofelixir]

ORIGINAL: Tulius Hostilius
Indeed, India can easily be changed to UK’s minor in the editor, but I don’t know how that would change the game balance. A lot, I would imagine….

Not only UK's income will boost, but India also has some of the best HQs, which I assume are for offsetting India's weakness as a major (although I would argue that Slim is worth a high rating). Slim, Mountbatten, and Giffard are all rating 7, while UK metropole only has one rating 7, Montgomery.
Imagine a fully upgraded Indian Army commanded by 7-9 rating HQs coming into Burma, facing Masakazu Kawabe who is only rating 5.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

General Slim, lol. Saw him on the history channel, but not for good things post-WW2. Did they remove the streets named after him?

Burma, Singapore and Viet-frickin' 'Nam is one of my favorite battle areas on the board.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Oh, far as upgrading tech on minors, want to say there's no discount on price, while the Major does receive discounts on Production tech.

[ReinerAllen]

Quote from Platoonist: Pretty much every major game title on the Second World War I've ever seen treats Spain as a "minor" power. Third Reich, World in Flames, Gary Grigsby's World at War to mention a few. This game just follows the established trend.

I agree, but the units you can recruit in Third Reich from a minor remain sub-par to a German or Allied unit. Not sure about Grigsby's work.

[eightroomofelixir]

Yes, they did remove one in Australia.

[FOARP]

Disagree that having all the slots filled is a bar on making Spain a major - it should be relatively easy for the developers simply just to add another slot. More of an issue in this system is the seeming requirement that each major has a "side" which it can only ever join. Also there's the game-play implications of having yet another major to manage.

On the other side, well, Finland is a major power in WIE, and pretty much all of the reasons for this apply also to Spain in WAW: it is geographically separated from Germany so it makes no sense for German resources to be used in Spain or vice-versa, it is relatively powerful.