Italian Neutrality

[DoXiTXxX]

I have not played many PBEMs so I don't know if this is common but my last 2 Allied opponents moved their entire French fleet and a large part of the Royal Navy with several carriers into the Adriatic Sea in the first few turns of the game, while Italy was still neutral. In one game I left the Italian fleet in the ports, they were quickly destroyed when Italy declared war on the Allies, in the other game I tried to scatter the Italian fleet, but they followed them and the result was very similar. I have been trying to come up with a good counter-move to this, but there seems to be no solution, I guess you could move some German bombers to Italy, but they can only move there after Italy declares war, that is probably too late. It seems like the Axis have their hands tied on this. Historically I don't believe the allies would have done this, their ships would have been very vulnerable there, and the Allies were actually hoping that Italy might remain neutral, especially the French would not have gone along with it since the plan is to basically to sacrifice their ships anyway. One simple solution to this might be to allow the Axis player to declare war instead of the automatic DOW, then he could simply wait until France falls and their ships go away, he might even wait until German bombers arrive to help. A more complicated solution but maybe more historical would be a zone similar to the one set up for the United States that Allied Ships cannot cross or crossing it might cause some kind of diplomatic or military penalties.

[Elessar2]

As you said, Italy needs to decide on its own when & if they join, not other factors (mainly how far the Germans are into France). I'm not sure how to construct a decision event for that tho, but I'd have to think that it's doable.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Welcome to the party, says the French & British. You gotta build some AA, get some air cover, hide, or ask Chubby Herman for some assistance.

[pjg100]

Buy an Italian maritime bomber in the first turn or two. You might also buy a GE maritime bomber, but there is an opportunity cost to that. Leave your ships in port, with the BBs in the Adriatic ports. Position your fighter so it can cover the ports. When the Brits move in, go after their carriers. You might still lose all your ships, but you can inflict some pain in return.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

Gotta put some pressure on England. Allied ships cannot be everywhere.

[DoXiTXxX]

I still think the Axis player should be allowed to declare war with Italy when he chooses, why should be forced into war when all his ships are surrounded by enemy ships? In such a case the allied player should have to declare war if he wants to attack the Italian fleet.

[amandkm]

The challenge here is to try to put yourself into the High Commands' places. Yes, defending the Italian fleet can cost you other opportunities. That sort of thing happened in the war, though. Neither side can be everywhere and do everything, on the one hand, but they also can't dump everything into one line of attack.

If you are the allies and you denude Africa to defend France a bit longer, well that leaves you exposed to Axis moves in that area. Game mechanisms cover some of these items (Like the Japanese in Manchuria) but others simply have game-related consequences (Want to skip the attacking Pearl to focus on SouthEast Asia? Sure, you can, but you're hading the Americans three more BB's and a CA).

[DoXiTXxX]

Yes of course, I totally agree, but the Axis have very few options in this situation, no German units can move into Italy before the DOW, Allied units can do anything they want while Italy is neutral. The Axis should have the option of declaring war or not, if the Allies want to attack the Italian fleet they always have the option of declaring war on Italy.

[ElvisJJonesRambo]

What happened historically? Guess I can check the history books.

[DoXiTXxX]

I thought the purpose of the game was to take history into our own hands and not necessarily have everything happen historically, In that case why doesn't Germany just declare war on the Soviet Union whether they're ready to attack or not, or Italy declare war on Greece when Germany has no interest in invading Greece, there should not be any automatic DOWs by any player controlled countries, it should be left up to the players to do it when or if they want.