AI cheating and supporting AI troops ! CONFIRMED

[FlashXAron_slith]

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

I need some help and feedback here …
As an owner of most games of Vic, I would like to support him by buying this.
But the two discussed topics (logistics and the cheating AI) make me a little bit cautious.

So, are the things really preventing a good game experience after some hours of playing?
If I know, that the AI is winning by massive cheats, I will get a Little bit angry about it.

Yes, I have seen YT-videos, but that does not answer the question for me.

I am playing at NORMAL Level and in my opinion it is terrible, even I will be able to win against that AI with barbaric cities, where near nothing is built , his troops has even better tech, but he only uses most of the time INF ...

anyway I would say , GIVE @VIC the chance to adapt it and offer us a "NONE CHEATING setting at normal settings"
even then the AI will be dumb af, but it will be a starting point, from where every player could choose himself, what advantages the AI should have ...
but there should be at least one setting , where the AI tries to play with the same rules, even it will be an easy game !

But how it is now, for me it is a no go and my brother already has stopped to play and another friend is waiting to buy it, if ever !

So my advice, wait ... I think I also will stop to play and wait and hope to be able to continue, maybe in some months,
AS FOR SURE IT ISN'T EASY , maybe even impossible to code that none cheating pc controlled opponent setting !

Wish @VIC the best and luck
as for sure it is a phantastic game ...

When you have 3 friends to play WHO HAVE LOT OF TIME and even agree to play a pbem game in the year 2020 you could buy it already

As @VIC say he will try


And as an example AIs by far best CITY and buildings ... most LEV 1 and only basic ones.... TURN 140 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



And mine, always close to have unrest, blackouts, shortage of money, resources etc.

[Laiders]

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

I need some help and feedback here …
As an owner of most games of Vic, I would like to support him by buying this.
But the two discussed topics (logistics and the cheating AI) make me a little bit cautious.

So, are the things really preventing a good game experience after some hours of playing?
If I know, that the AI is winning by massive cheats, I will get a Little bit angry about it.

Yes, I have seen YT-videos, but that does not answer the question for me.

The manual is pretty open about exactly what different AIs get on what settings and even some of the design thoughts about why. You can read the manual for free so go browse through and see for yourself.

Obviously OP feels differently but personally I feel regular could almost do with a boost, assuming start parity. It's really not hard to knock out a major with pretty much pure inf and snowball from there. I presume the same process is happening elsewhere with other majors though in my current game so I should get an epic showdown. There will also always be winners and losers and I've certainly had very short games where I have most definitely been the loser.

Vic's AI plays fairly on regular in my view with a few advantages to compensate for AI disadvantages. The fact the AI cannot use strategic transfer, at least at present, is really interesting. Didn't know that. That's a massive force multiplier for a competent human player. A human player can under-recruit, compared to the AI, reasonably certain they will be able to stabilise a second front with scratch forces and strategic movement, whereas the AI must man a front to defend it.

The idea that AIs must always play by the exact rules as the player, especially in a 4X operational wargame, is pretty overambitious. Remember, Vic cannot use much AI scripting here. He can only write general scripts for city development and so on not script out entire operations, as you could in a classic wargame. That is to say, he cannot do the thinking in advance for the AI. The AI has to 'think' on its feet for itself. With all the complex systems interacting, it is going to have to play with simplified rules for ease of development, to provide sufficient challenge and to ensure reasonable enough turn lengths on most CPUs. Vic is entirely open about this and why in the manual ahead of time so you have no excuse for not knowing and getting sore about it. There's always room for suggestions and constructive criticism though.

IOW, Vic, if you check back in, great job on the AI as always.

[Naselus]

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

So, are the things really preventing a good game experience after some hours of playing?
If I know, that the AI is winning by massive cheats, I will get a Little bit angry about it.

The AI 'cheating' for the majors more or less extends to a slight bonus to logistics range and carry capacity, free road construction, and somewhat easier budget rules (it doesn't pay salaries, for example, and can probably shift tax rate when it needs to without mucking about with strategem cards).

It still needs to supply its units. It still needs to generate food/fuel/ammo for them. It still needs to be able to race a line of supply back to the SHQ for them along roads and can't push 20 hexes away from a road space without hitting supply problems. It needs to pay resources and recruits to use them, needs to generate industrial points, and needs to generate and spend research points to get techs.

Overall, I don't really think you can call it 'massive cheats'.

[Falke]

@ FlashXAron_slith - You have 7! truck stations in a single zone. You only need 1 truck station in a zone with appropriate level

[Laiders]

^ This guy gets it.

I think that's the third or fourth person to explain to you Flash how you are being woefully, woefully inefficient in a situation where you actually had a pretty nice start, albeit a little hemmed in by dense forests. If you were more efficient, you would be dramatically outpacing that AI in expansion, assuming reg or beginner difficulty. Examine the situation and improve or restart implementing the lessons on logistics available all over the place. Literally every other thread is about logistics problems and there are those of us willing to help you solve them. However, we can only do that if you will listen to us when we tell you minor AI bonuses are not the cause of your present situation unless you are playing on a very high difficulty in which case you signed up for it!

[Frostwave]

If the AI struggles too much without this advantage I say leave it in. If Vic can make the AI competent as far having it follow the same rules for logistics that we have to use then I'm for it.

I just imagine they have able leaders keeping the supplies flowing so doesn't bother me at all. What would bother me is if they cant hold their own anymore. I can manage my logistics just fine and so can most people after doing some research on the subject(not a slight on anyone just saying it seems like AI currently are not capable so would be too huge of an advantage to remove it at the moment); I don't want changes that will impair the AI's ability to wage war. We have too many advantages over AI enemies as it is.

[Naselus]

Imagine the admin strain as well, most of those assets look to be outside the 6 hex range. Looking at the agridome outputs I'm guessing a 40% production penalty even if the governor is 0% relations and has no relevant skills...

He's setting half his output on fire before it even gets to the zone stockpile. There's 40,000 people working in agriculture producing 1300 food - that Agridome 4 should put out that much on it's own for 10,000 fewer workers.

There's so many alarm bells ringing about the management here that the AI probably really doesn't need any minor cheats to win this one tbh.

[Kamelpov]

Personally I have no problem with regular AI

Here the latest save : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KbYzDt ... sp=sharing
I'm number one at the same rate than them at turn 77. And my army is superior to theirs too with armored tank and motorized infantry.+ I have already 1 corps + artillery+inf mixed div.

[FlashXAron_slith]

morons , I am winning the game ...


THE THREAD IS ABOUT
for all who don't understand it ONCE again
it is about

"CHEATING OF THE AI and not using the same rules"

at normal settings anyone expects that AI opponents use the same rules.
And yes I know, all that morons, who want to show, how good they are, are showing up
in such thread and it happens in every strategy game ...

I really don't care, if you are able to beat any strategy game at any unfair settings,
but if I want to play that way, I would play an endless "beat the wave" game or "tower defense" and look how many turns I could survive ... so go and play that games and don't write anything in a thread , where the topic is,

once again
the topic is about
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CHEATING AI (no supply lines, no distance rules, all resources out of thin air and a lot more)
and that there should be a setting, when someone starts a game, where we could decide, what we want and what not !
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


and would be even cool for all that overcool gamers, if there are such settings, you could change to "godlike" and tell us how fabulous you are, that you still beat it ...

Anyway if that settings and AI will make it to STEAM , it will have a lot of worse reviews
as normal gamers want at least ONE setting, where the AI isn't cheating ...

[Cornuthaum]

ORIGINAL: Frostwave

If the AI struggles too much without this advantage I say leave it in. If Vic can make the AI competent as far having it follow the same rules for logistics that we have to use then I'm for it.

I just imagine they have able leaders keeping the supplies flowing so doesn't bother me at all. What would bother me is if they cant hold their own anymore. I can manage my logistics just fine and so can most people after doing some research on the subject(not a slight on anyone just saying it seems like AI currently are not capable so would be too huge of an advantage to remove it at the moment); I don't want changes that will impair the AI's ability to wage war. We have too many advantages over AI enemies as it is.

Well said. It's more important to have an AI that can hold its own in a fight than it is to try - and inevitably fail - to make a human-level AI (because any videogame dev that could do that should just sell it to their military or corporate entity of choice :X)

[FlashXAron_slith]

ORIGINAL: Naselus

Imagine the admin strain as well, most of those assets look to be outside the 6 hex range. Looking at the agridome outputs I'm guessing a 40% production penalty even if the governor is 0% relations and has no relevant skills...

He's setting half his output on fire before it even gets to the zone stockpile. There's 40,000 people working in agriculture producing 1300 food - that Agridome 4 should put out that much on it's own for 10,000 fewer workers.

There's so many alarm bells ringing about the management here that the AI probably really doesn't need any minor cheats to win this one tbh.

idiot, there was an worker shortage, as suddenly 30000 people decided to go to the other town, even there has been terrible conditions there and always travelling 5000 between both cities ...

everything the AI hasn't to handle
and the AI needs that cheats or it wouldn't survive 10 turns atm, with the same rules ...

[eddieballgame]

I can't imagine an AI playing a game this complex (without help) for $40.
Not to disrespect the 'devs' efforts, though I would like the option to 'tweak the cheats'.
Presently, I need all the help I can get.[:)]

[Smidlee]

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith

morons , I am winning the game ...


THE THREAD IS ABOUT
for all who don't understand it ONCE again
it is about

"CHEATING OF THE AI and not using the same rules"

at normal settings anyone expects that AI opponents use the same rules.
And yes I know, all that morons, who want to show, how good they are, are showing up
in such thread and it happens in every strategy game ...

I really don't care, if you are able to beat any strategy game at any unfair settings,
but if I want to play that way, I would play an endless "beat the wave" game or "tower defense" and look how many turns I could survive ... so go and play that games and don't write anything in a thread , where the topic is,

once again
the topic is about
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CHEATING AI (no supply lines, no distance rules, all resources out of thin air and a lot more)
and that there should be a setting, when someone starts a game, where we could decide, what we want and what not !
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


and would be even cool for all that overcool gamers, if there are such settings, you could change to "godlike" and tell us how fabulous you are, that you still beat it ...

Anyway if that settings and AI will make it to STEAM , it will have a lot of worse reviews
as normal gamers want at least ONE setting, where the AI isn't cheating ...

I going to paste what i wrote in the steam forum:
"Most single player video games comes down to timing and pattern recognition with sometimes randomness to change things up. AI is never about fairness from Super Mario Brothers to Pacman to strategy games like this one. Once you get your timing down and recognized patterns in the AI then you need to add to AI numbers and/or bonuses to make the game challenging. For example Pacman the ghost gets faster and the power pellets last shorter. Randomness can both add to the challenge but also can make the game easier as seen in many rogue-like.

A lot of strategy games becomes easier mid-game which ends up just mopping up to finish the win. In Shadow Empires at least the victory is set to reduce the mop-up phase. A few strategy games tries to add more mid-game challenge as in Rome:TW where the other Roman factions declare war on you. Another example, AI Wars the AI becomes more aggressive sending larger waves and doesn't pretend the AI is fair nor play by the same rules."

The AI is a set of instructions and has no intelligence. I don't understand why gamers thinks AI must to be "fair" in strategy games when it almost never in other types of games. Even in Risk where the AI is playing by the same rules the AI are programed to gang up on the player to make it challenging.

[achim123]

Dear FlashXAron_slith,

if the program dont cheat (i dont call it AI, because its a simple programm) you would easly beat it. Its always the same with computer games. The power of a computer is "comparing numbers" not thinking.

Why can a chess programm beat you? Because its an AI? Super intelligent and super smart?
As a human you look at the chess board, and start moving the pieces around in your brain. At some point time runs out or your brain cant memorize all the solutions you found. You make a decision at what you have got. And as a beginner you are always wrong

The computer do the same, BUT in the time you look at 20 possible solution the computer can look at 20.000 solutions and memorize them all. After time runs out, he choose "the best" from 20.000 solutions.
Strip the computer down to 20 possible solutions, he is dump as shit because he cant find/choose from the other 19.980 solutions. Thats the power of a computer. Compare giant amounts of data in a very short time period.

Chess is easy, the number of options are fenite because of the rules. The "problem" with shadow empire is, its a complex game for a computer (to many options).

The only way to get an equal opponent in complex games is to give the computer an advance. One way is to lessen the options for the computer (road costs no money, no stratgems, no logistic network, give more ressources, ... as examples). Thats the cheating.
If we want all that rules for the programm too, it cost us something ... processing time. The computer has to consider all the rules to find solutions and that costs processing time (comparing numbers). And the equation is simple, more processing time means a better solution.

FlashXAron_slith, i dont say you are wrong, the computer is cheating. I try to exlain why the developers build in this "cheating" and whats the problem if the computer doesnt cheat with the same rules.

Edit:
There is a discusion in the form "Anyone think end turn takes too long?". Thats an example for processing time.

[Smidlee]

ORIGINAL: Vic
I am planning to tune down this free dirt roads rule in the weeks to come. I might even go so far as to put it on an equal footing with human players. There has been much rucos about this advantage and I am willing to listen to the player base here.

Best wishes,
Vic

I find this complaint (AI cheats) in most strategy games on steam forums including the AI can see the map. If you programed Deepmind to play Shadow Empire like Starcraft2 using cheesy tactics to beat 99% of the players you would then have complaints the AI is unbeatable. I might be one of those who complain. I love to play chess with a human player but hate playing it against a search engine that never makes a tactical error in the plys it's searches.
The real challenge of any TBS is to keep the game challenging mid-game.

P.S I would like the option to remove roads the AI puts down.

[Noldofinwe]

P.S I would like the option to remove roads the AI puts down.

Check out the latest beta patch, Vic added this feature [8D]

[ernieschwitz]

I am always wary of someone who uses CAPS LOCK to make a point, and call people names... Maybe that is just me. I don't see how it furthers discussion.

As for the AI Cheating, name me one game, of complixity high enough, that is where players get many options of different natures, that the AI uses exactly the same rules as the player. I am betting there are none, and that you are only being tricked to think, that it isn't so.

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

The AI definitely cheats with infinite supply range, but I personally don't have a problem with it. I just had to learn that the only way to cut the AI off is to completely surround him. Although, sometimes it seems like he cares about his supply roads and will pull back when I zone them, but more often than not, this move just costs me the game cause he breaks through the front line and takes my capital. This generally has an impact only on early game. Later on, whatever, I got tanks and the Cult of LIS is on my side.

Anyway, my point is, it's not that bad really. Just pretend it's a minor and thank the God of LIS for making it so that Majors at least respect your borders. Cause the last thing you need is another Minor regime stealing your stuff.

[Naselus]

ORIGINAL: FlashXAron_slith
idiot, there was an worker shortage, as suddenly 30000 people decided to go to the other town, even there has been terrible conditions there and always travelling 5000 between both cities ...

everything the AI hasn't to handle
and the AI needs that cheats or it wouldn't survive 10 turns atm, with the same rules ...

The worker shortage doesn't explain the full production penalty that your buildings are suffering. You're about 20% short of workers, but your output is being cut by nearly 50%. Either your governor for this zone absolutely hates you and has no production-related skills, or else you've got enormous admin strain eating away at your output totals - mostly being caused by all those tiny truck stops in the arse end of nowhere.

And you mostly have a worker shortage because you've managed your assets poorly - you have half a dozen unnecessary truck stations, and you have added extra buildings to the zone in a way that damages the output of your existing buildings. Run well, you could probably shut down enough buildings to eliminate the worker shortfall and still get the same output.

And this is relevant because I think it explains why you think this is such a big deal and most of the rest of us simply don't. If you run your logi network efficiently, then all the AI basically gets to skip out on building, staffing, fueling and upgrading a truck stop in each city centre, which is not a big advantage after the first 10 turns or so - but if you run your logi network like this, with hundreds of tiny truck stops everywhere and very few overstretched zones, then sure it looks like a much bigger advantage. But it's mostly because you're being incredibly inefficient. Many of the buildings that you're complaining the AI is getting to 'avoid' building should never have been built by you either.

[WeaverofBrokenThreads]

Just to clarify, you should definitely get this game; the logistics and AI rules are really not as bad as people make them to seem. On regular, it is very well balanced. As for other difficulties, I get spanked more often than not, even by Minor regimes, but that has nothing to do with the AI logistics or anything.