Optimal Experience

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 11:04 am

Ok.. so I was bored.. I wanted to know at what skill check percentage I was going to average the most experience. I realized the equation for this was a curve and instead of doing it the easy way I did basic Calculus for the 1st time in almost a decade (See mom, that college education isn't going to waste

). It turns out you get the best results at a 50% check earning on average 87.75 xp per check. The top of the curve is pretty flat so anything close to 50% gives almost as good a result.

here's some average xp for skill check %s if anyone cares

2% ~7xp
20% ~53xp
30% ~73xp
40% ~84xp
50% ~87.75xp (max)
60% ~84xp
70% ~73xp
80% ~53xp
98% ~7xp or ~16xp* or ~25xp**

*at 88+% there may be a boundary limit that starts kicking in (assuming you can't get negitive xps from a succussful check.. Larkin?) If this limit exists then the numbers at the very top of the scale (88+%) don't drop off quite as rapidly as the ones at the bottom, hence the ~16xp at 98% assuming I did the math for the boundary limit correctly.

** see post further down, Clarification of minimun xp from a successful skill check yields ~25xp (this is the 'real' value)

Coyote27 · Post by **Coyote27** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:17 pm

*Coyote raises a glass to number-crunchers and bean-counters everywhere.

Nice.

widowmaker · Post by **widowmaker** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:20 pm

So I guess it pays to be good... but not too good.

widowmaker

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 12:33 pm

Sleeping_Dragon wrote: *at 88+% there may be a boundary limit that starts kicking in (assuming you can't get negitive xps from a succussful check.. Larkin?) If this limit exists then the numbers at the very top of the scale (88+%) don't drop off quite as rapidly as the ones at the bottom, hence the ~16xp at 98% assuming I did the math for the boundary limit correctly.

int CalcXps(int check, int toss)
{
int ret;

ret = 375 - (3 * check) - toss;

if ( ret < 15 )
ret = 15;

return ret;
}

Firefly · Post by **Firefly** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 2:59 pm

I think it's time to give Larkin another break, he's started speaking in code

.

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 7:41 pm

widowmaker wrote:So I guess it pays to be good... but not too good.

widowmaker

Skill check %s and skill values are 2 different things...
Also notice that those are averages, which might be misleading.
Finally, it only takes into account "visible" skill checks, which are only part of the whole.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 10:57 pm

Thanks to Larkin's little code tidbit, the minimum xp for a succussful skill is 15xp. That changes the boundary conditions from what I'd guessed. The real boundary limit will start kicking in at 84% and at a 98% check the average xp will be ~25xp.

As Iceman pointed out these are AVERAGES for skill check percentages NOT your skill value %.

Always remeber.. Figures don't lie; but liars can figure

Always know EXACTLY what the numbers are discribing it may not (usually) be what it appears at first glance.

widowmaker · Post by **widowmaker** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:02 am

LarkinVB wrote:int CalcXps(int check, int toss)
{
int ret;
ret = 375 - (3 * check) - toss;
if ( ret < 15 )
ret = 15;
return ret;
}

Cool. I had wondered what language was used to write the game, and that looks suspiciously like C++. I know not all of the game is in C++; what other languages were used? If you don't mind my asking, of course.

widowmaker

widowmaker · Post by **widowmaker** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:12 am

Thorgrim wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by widowmaker
So I guess it pays to be good... but not too good.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Skill check %s and skill values are 2 different things...
Also notice that those are averages, which might be misleading.
Finally, it only takes into account "visible" skill checks, which are only part of the whole.

I winked! Is joke. Laugh.

widowmaker

LarkinVB · Post by **LarkinVB** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:59 am

widowmaker wrote:Cool. I had wondered what language was used to write the game, and that looks suspiciously like C++. I know not all of the game is in C++; what other languages were used? If you don't mind my asking, of course.

widowmaker

Since you seem to have interest

1. No, its not C++ but you are close. After C++ do C-- and you have it

2. Its only written in one language. So how do you know another language is involved ?

MahaROGa · Post by **MahaROGa** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:56 pm

So based on the formula that Larkin posted, wouldn't a 25% skill roll always produce better XP than a 50% skill roll?

375 - (3*50) - (1thru100) = 224thru125xp

where

375 - (3*25) - (1thru100) = 299thru200xp

I was assuming that you only get XP when the skill roll is sucessfull, is that true or do you get it everytime a roll is made?

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:01 pm

Yes, because it's a harder skill check. You won't make the check as often, but when you do you'll get more XP. Hence the warning in my post above... actually, it won't *always* happen in your own example, 224/200 for example. But for the same toss, yes (up to 25%).
And that is correct, you only get XP when you succeed.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:15 am

MahaROGa wrote:So based on the formula that Larkin posted, wouldn't a 25% skill roll always produce better XP than a 50% skill roll?

375 - (3*50) - (1thru100) = 224thru125xp

where

375 - (3*25) - (1thru100) = 299thru200xp

I was assuming that you only get XP when the skill roll is sucessfull, is that true or do you get it everytime a roll is made?

Yep, you will get more xp for a SUCCESSFUL check at 25% then you would at 50%.. BUT you only successfully make that check 1/2 as often.

also in your examples:
375 - (3*50) - (1thru100) = 224thru125xp...

not quite true.... cause any die roll over 50 is a failure which gives you 0xp... so

375 - (3*50) - (1thru50) = 224thru175xp (51thru100)=0xp
and 375 - (3*25) - (1thru25) = 299thru275xp (26thru100)=0xp

look at the 2% check it's an easy example.. its only ~7xp on AVERAGE... if you make a 2% check you'll earn either 368 or 367xps on a roll of 1 or 2, but you'll only earn that 2% of the time, the other 98% of the time, for rolls 3 thru 100, you get SQUAT

so for a 2% check.. it's (368+367+0+0+0...+0*)/100 = 7.35xp AVERAGE.
* thats 98 +0s

BTW the formula to deterine the average xp for a given % skill check is (n/100)*(375-(3*n)-((n+1)/2)) where n = the skill check number (ie. for 2% n=2) (this only holds for 83%(?.. see below) and below because of the 15xp minimum for a successful check changes things at 84%(?.. see below) and greater)

Also noticed you used 375 instead of 350 in the xp formula. then looked closer at the code Larkin posted.

I used 350 instead of 375 for the numbers I posted originally. I got the 350 from the xp formula in the ToS guide that was posted but that wasn't 100% accurate. All my #'s should be slightly(?) higher and the boundary limits due to the 15xp minimum will be push up a few % and the number for 98% may be off considerably on the low side... will recalculate at a later date. Formula I posted to find average xp has already been corrected.

widowmaker · Post by **widowmaker** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:07 am

LarkinVB wrote:2. Its only written in one language. So how do you know another language is involved ?

Somewhere out there in a post you suggested an alternative to DirectX that was a free download. I assumed it was used for this game. Perhaps I mispoke in saying it was a language. That is what I was referencing.

widowmaker

widowmaker · Post by **widowmaker** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:18 am

Wait... the minimum XP for a successful check is 15? Does this translate directly to the "XPs earned" portion of the F2 screen? I was watching my XPs in a fight the other night. I had an enemy Titan down in the same hex as mine and shot it with 5 MGs. Each had a 98%, and each hit earned me 2 XP (combat XP, obviously). Are there other factors to XPs earned?

Or is this a patch update that isn't in effect yet?

widowmaker

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:57 pm

There are some other modifiers. I know that shooting a fallen or disabled titan is one of them, I think it's half xp, but these are 'conditional' modifiers so I can't take them into account when crunching the numbers. Don't have a clue what other conditional modifiers could exsist. Although they PROBABLY cut the xp AFTER the xp for the check is determined.. so 15xp becomes 7 or 8 xp. No sure how the 2xp was determined, could be modifiers. Will pay more attention at the numbers in my next game.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:03 pm

Ok, re-did the numbers using the 'correct' formula (375 instead of 350) and it changes the numbers quite a bit.

The optimal check % for maximum average experience is now 53% and 54%. The boundary condition that the minimum xp for a successful skill check is 15xp doesn't start to effect the numbers till a 91% skill check. (The 98% skill check number below takes this into account)

2% ~7xp
10% ~34xp
20% ~61xp
30% ~81xp
40% ~94xp
50% ~100xp
53% and 54% =100.17xp (max)
60% ~99xp
70% ~91xp
80% ~76xp
90% ~54xp
98% ~36xp

MahaROGa · Post by **MahaROGa** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:27 pm

Thanks for the explaination BBlue. I didn't understand that you were trying to determine the average XP over the average roll for each skill value. But on my way home I did finally understand what you were doing and your note confirmed that.

I'm surprized that this seems to produce a curve (except for the minimum of 15xp) I would have expected it to be linear. Maybe it's a triangle rising up to 50% and then declining.

Anyhow... Kind of interesting, not sure how useful it is... I'm certainly not going to try to shoot while moving just because that gives me a 50% roll vs. the 75% roll that I would get if I stood still.

Sleeping_Dragon · Post by **Sleeping_Dragon** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 8:08 pm

MahaROGa wrote:I'm surprized that this seems to produce a curve (except for the minimum of 15xp) I would have expected it to be linear. Maybe it's a triangle rising up to 50% and then declining.

Anyhow... Kind of interesting, not sure how useful it is... I'm certainly not going to try to shoot while moving just because that gives me a 50% roll vs. the 75% roll that I would get if I stood still.

The curve is a parabola since the formula for average experience ends up with a n^2 term in it.

As far a being useful... Notta, zip, zilch

I could give a crap what the numbers are when I'm being fired at!! and you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to use every trick in the book to get my skill% as close to 98% as I can! Only thing it could be useful for is maybe to game balance xp, but they already seem balanced. I was just curious:)

Thorgrim · Post by **Thorgrim** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:12 pm

widowmaker wrote:Wait... the minimum XP for a successful check is 15? Does this translate directly to the "XPs earned" portion of the F2 screen? I was watching my XPs in a fight the other night. I had an enemy Titan down in the same hex as mine and shot it with 5 MGs. Each had a 98%, and each hit earned me 2 XP (combat XP, obviously). Are there other factors to XPs earned?

Notice that for attack skill checks (hitting with weapons), the XP earned is divided by 7/10/14 depending on weapon class (heavy/medium/light). This will all be in the updated guide, which will be released after the patch is out.