If a hex is 30 miles across, ie approximately 900 square miles, isn't the incidence of hitting mines W A Y too high in UV?
Maybe the mine delivery systems and capacities in UV are accurate but mine warfare seems to totally dominate play.
Nothing I've read about the South Pacific suggests mines were the constant bugbear experienced in UV.
Was the supply of mines available to both sides really a bottomless bag?
Something just aint right.
Mines
Moderators: Joel Billings, Tankerace, siRkid
Depends on the size of the channel..
In a lot of those 30 mile hexes, the channel will, in all probability, be considerably smaller. Indispensable Strait was a narrow channel compared with the actual width of the water between Guadalcanal and Malaita IIRC, and the waters around Shortlands, Gili Gili, Finschafen, Rabaul, and Truk were filled with small reefs, rocks, and shoals, which cannot be duplicated in a game of this scale, but will wreck the bottom of a ship. All of which means that the minefield need not stretch for 30 miles, but could be concentrated in a two or three mile channel. And even if it is fairly wide, just the possibility of hitting a mine will make most captains at least slow down, if not turn back.
"Action springs not from thought, but from a readiness for responsibility.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer
And then there are beaches, ports and other areas that need defending against invasion, they are not all that hard to mine either. Any form of transport or short range (fire) vessel should be pretty vulnerable on Transport, Fast Transport or Bombardment missions against mined targets. Though I have to agree with the game when it coms to cruisers and battleships, except for straits, these ships should rarelly be in danger from mines (I've seen at least one CA run on a mine, but that was with a thick belt three hexes deep and partially in straits, so the probability would have been high).
It should also be noted that offshore mine belts were regularly laid in WWII, I do not know whether that was common practice in the Pacific though. In European waters such obstacles were impassable for capital ships until mine sweepers had a day or two of work (to clear channels, not the whole mine fields).
On the other hand I am missing air delivered mine fields in the game, most level bombers and possibly patrol aircraft should be able to drop mines as a mission. Mines should also be available from more ports. Whether this supply should be limited is another matter.
Right now, I see relatively little damage to ships from mining, notable exceptions are small crafts trying to clear the mines and slow transports lumbering through minefields. Real combat ships very rarely take damage and if they do it's not too serious.
Marc aka Caran...
P.S.: It's a pain when you play the allies and have only 4 minelayers at your service, particularly when you run into an enemy bombardment, surface or fast transport TF and lose half yours ships in one night (I learned never to employ more then one DM in a single mission that way). Submarines laying mines are at best a nuisance, not a serious option.
It should also be noted that offshore mine belts were regularly laid in WWII, I do not know whether that was common practice in the Pacific though. In European waters such obstacles were impassable for capital ships until mine sweepers had a day or two of work (to clear channels, not the whole mine fields).
On the other hand I am missing air delivered mine fields in the game, most level bombers and possibly patrol aircraft should be able to drop mines as a mission. Mines should also be available from more ports. Whether this supply should be limited is another matter.
Right now, I see relatively little damage to ships from mining, notable exceptions are small crafts trying to clear the mines and slow transports lumbering through minefields. Real combat ships very rarely take damage and if they do it's not too serious.
Marc aka Caran...
P.S.: It's a pain when you play the allies and have only 4 minelayers at your service, particularly when you run into an enemy bombardment, surface or fast transport TF and lose half yours ships in one night (I learned never to employ more then one DM in a single mission that way). Submarines laying mines are at best a nuisance, not a serious option.
Marc aka Caran... ministerialis
I just had an opponent run 4 BBs into Noumea on a bombardment run only to have three of them hit mines. Numerous combat vessels of mine have hit mines. In fact I would say more warships than transports hit mines since it is not possible to place MSWs into SCTFs.
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
Drex is right
Have to second Drex's post. I've seen plenty of capital ships hit mines in undetected mine fields.
In current PBEM, IJN BB task force on bombardment run to PM, 1BB hit unknown minefield almost certainly laid by The Argonaut and therefore of tiny size. Lucklily the damaged BB's escort saw off the follow up sub attack
Rich
In current PBEM, IJN BB task force on bombardment run to PM, 1BB hit unknown minefield almost certainly laid by The Argonaut and therefore of tiny size. Lucklily the damaged BB's escort saw off the follow up sub attack
Rich
I am trying to be objective in my assessment that mines are way too effective and numerous in UV.
Not just mines themselves but the entire game seems tilted in a quirky pro-mine way...as if one of the designers had a real leaning in this direction, and an evil sense of humor.
I'm currently playing Admiral Laurent in PBEM scenario 17...man, if anyone wants to see allied MSW sunk in a hurry, play as Allies against this guy.
I can't let a MSW leave port it seems without it being sunk...even when surrounded by 20 destroyers and SC's.
I've lost 4 or 5 MSW and a couple DMS so far, just setting up the Wunpunko, Kouratopa, Gavignama bases. It's early October 42.
Laurent's strategy is to lay heavy minefields and leave subs in the base hexes to pick off the MSW. I've sunk a couple of his subs but he's way ahead so far by my reckoning. The MSW at this stage of the game are worth a hell of a lot more than subs.
The subs will invariably ignore any escorting ships and target the MSW
.
Of course, when I set up hunter-killer groups (without the MSW) Laurent just removes the subs.
I'm way ahead in the CV battles so far but if this MSW carnage continues I might yet lose this game.
It seems mines can be laid in a hurry but take forever to remove.
It's true that all 900 square miles of a hex need not be mined, there would exist natural channels,chokepoints etc. in most shallow areas, but in UV, even if only a few mines are left in a hex, you can be sure that a ship will hit them, 900 square miles or not.
Not just mines themselves but the entire game seems tilted in a quirky pro-mine way...as if one of the designers had a real leaning in this direction, and an evil sense of humor
.I'm currently playing Admiral Laurent in PBEM scenario 17...man, if anyone wants to see allied MSW sunk in a hurry, play as Allies against this guy.
I can't let a MSW leave port it seems without it being sunk...even when surrounded by 20 destroyers and SC's.
I've lost 4 or 5 MSW and a couple DMS so far, just setting up the Wunpunko, Kouratopa, Gavignama bases. It's early October 42.
Laurent's strategy is to lay heavy minefields and leave subs in the base hexes to pick off the MSW. I've sunk a couple of his subs but he's way ahead so far by my reckoning. The MSW at this stage of the game are worth a hell of a lot more than subs.
The subs will invariably ignore any escorting ships and target the MSW
.Of course, when I set up hunter-killer groups (without the MSW) Laurent just removes the subs.
I'm way ahead in the CV battles so far but if this MSW carnage continues I might yet lose this game.
It seems mines can be laid in a hurry but take forever to remove.
It's true that all 900 square miles of a hex need not be mined, there would exist natural channels,chokepoints etc. in most shallow areas, but in UV, even if only a few mines are left in a hex, you can be sure that a ship will hit them, 900 square miles or not.
Never give up, never surrender
Hello...
Mines can be useful, if employed correctly. To counter the effectiveness of mines, I suggest the following:
1) Never use "Retirement Allowed" option, for bombardment or surface task forces, when moving to bases where mines are suspect. They will make a high speed night run. This dramatically increases the chances of hitting a minefield.
2) If you must enter a known minefield, try moving adjacent to the hex on one turn and then advancing into the field on the second turn. The ships will move at a slower rate and hit fewer mines.
3) If you suspect enemy sub activity in the mined area, send a submarine hunter-killer task force of many destroyer type ships to the adjacent hex, as described in item 2, and then advance into the hex. In they arrive in daytime, moving slowly, the destroyer types will most likely be able to "sweep" some of the mines. You might also place a similar force 2 hexes closer to the Japanese side of the map, so that if the submarine runs from the first group, he may run into the second.
4) A mine sweeper will remove 50% of the mines in each minefield it sweeps on the first sweep and then 50% of the remaining mines on each subsequent sweep. You might try creating a transport task force with a couple minesweepers and a dozen destroyers. This should do the trick, if they approach slowly. If you feel the enemy submarine is targeting the minesweeper, to the exclusion of the destroyers, you might also include a sort of Q-ship. This would be a nice, fat transport or cargo ship. The submarine would most likely target this type ship, first.
5) Lastly, if the mines and enemy submarines are close to your bases, you might increase air based anti-submarine forces. Move several bomber, patrol, dive bomber and torpedo bomber groups as close as you can get them, along with your carriers, and put everything on 100% ASW. This should chase off the submarine, if not destroy it.
Hope this Helps...
Michael Wood
________________________________________________________________
Mines can be useful, if employed correctly. To counter the effectiveness of mines, I suggest the following:
1) Never use "Retirement Allowed" option, for bombardment or surface task forces, when moving to bases where mines are suspect. They will make a high speed night run. This dramatically increases the chances of hitting a minefield.
2) If you must enter a known minefield, try moving adjacent to the hex on one turn and then advancing into the field on the second turn. The ships will move at a slower rate and hit fewer mines.
3) If you suspect enemy sub activity in the mined area, send a submarine hunter-killer task force of many destroyer type ships to the adjacent hex, as described in item 2, and then advance into the hex. In they arrive in daytime, moving slowly, the destroyer types will most likely be able to "sweep" some of the mines. You might also place a similar force 2 hexes closer to the Japanese side of the map, so that if the submarine runs from the first group, he may run into the second.
4) A mine sweeper will remove 50% of the mines in each minefield it sweeps on the first sweep and then 50% of the remaining mines on each subsequent sweep. You might try creating a transport task force with a couple minesweepers and a dozen destroyers. This should do the trick, if they approach slowly. If you feel the enemy submarine is targeting the minesweeper, to the exclusion of the destroyers, you might also include a sort of Q-ship. This would be a nice, fat transport or cargo ship. The submarine would most likely target this type ship, first.
5) Lastly, if the mines and enemy submarines are close to your bases, you might increase air based anti-submarine forces. Move several bomber, patrol, dive bomber and torpedo bomber groups as close as you can get them, along with your carriers, and put everything on 100% ASW. This should chase off the submarine, if not destroy it.
Hope this Helps...
Michael Wood
________________________________________________________________
Drex wrote:I just had an opponent run 4 BBs into Noumea on a bombardment run only to have three of them hit mines. Numerous combat vessels of mine have hit mines...
Thanks for that information Mike.
I really didn't know about the 'move adjacent then move to mined hex next turn' trick...will try it.
"1) Never use "Retirement Allowed" option, for bombardment or surface task forces, when moving to bases where mines are suspect. They will make a high speed night run. This dramatically increases the chances of hitting a minefield."
I'd have thought bombarding BB's unaccompanied by DD's CA's etc should be virtually immune to mines, whether or not they have retirement orders.
On a related note, why are bombardment tf's assumed to close to the range of the smallest calibre gun in the fleet...wouldn't it be more logical to stay at the largest gun in the fleets range, with the lighter ships serving the escort role?
"2) If you must enter a known minefield, try moving adjacent to the hex on one turn and then advancing into the field on the second turn. The ships will move at a slower rate and hit fewer mines."
This seems to make the whole mine warfare thing even more convoluted...there is already quite a bit of micro-management involved.
"3) If you suspect enemy sub activity in the mined area, send a submarine hunter-killer task force of many destroyer type ships to the adjacent hex, as described in item 2, and then advance into the hex. In they arrive in daytime, moving slowly, the destroyer types will most likely be able to "sweep" some of the mines. You might also place a similar force 2 hexes closer to the Japanese side of the map, so that if the submarine runs from the first group, he may run into the second."
Why are subs so effective at enemy bases in the first place?
Most of my encounters with subs at my own bases have occurred at night, in shallow water with the sub on the surface, with the sub maneuvering in or around friendly and enemy minefields, ie virtually unmaneuverable...yet the sub not only gets in a strike on my tf's but is at leisure to pick and choose it's target, then somehow get away most of the time.
"4) A mine sweeper will remove 50% of the mines in each minefield it sweeps on the first sweep and then 50% of the remaining mines on each subsequent sweep. You might try creating a transport task force with a couple minesweepers and a dozen destroyers. This should do the trick, if they approach slowly. If you feel the enemy submarine is targeting the minesweeper, to the exclusion of the destroyers, you might also include a sort of Q-ship. This would be a nice, fat transport or cargo ship. The submarine would most likely target this type ship, first."
When I have included MSW with DD's SC's etc in a transport tf without the Q-ship, the sub has never targetted anything but the MSW.
What is the probabilty of the sub targetting a ship other than the MSW in those circumstances?
"5) Lastly, if the mines and enemy submarines are close to your bases, you might increase air based anti-submarine forces. Move several bomber, patrol, dive bomber and torpedo bomber groups as close as you can get them, along with your carriers, and put everything on 100% ASW. This should chase off the submarine, if not destroy it."
Well, even with virtually everything on ASW, my planes have about as much chance of sinking these subs as I have of winning lotto.
Even an attack is a real surprise.
You are joking with your suggestion to move everything, including carriers to anti-sub patrol the bases in question every time a sub shows up...right?
PS. Another MSW, escorted by 20 SC's DD's just sunk at my base by Laurent's subs while posting this.
This aspect of the game is totally broken Mike and I must say that if you do not see it the prospects of WITP turning out well seem pretty remote.
I understand you are not in charge of design but at least some semblance of recognition that a problem or two might exist would be reassuring.
I never thought I'd say this but maybe Tristanjohn is right, WITP is doomed
I really didn't know about the 'move adjacent then move to mined hex next turn' trick...will try it.
"1) Never use "Retirement Allowed" option, for bombardment or surface task forces, when moving to bases where mines are suspect. They will make a high speed night run. This dramatically increases the chances of hitting a minefield."
I'd have thought bombarding BB's unaccompanied by DD's CA's etc should be virtually immune to mines, whether or not they have retirement orders.
On a related note, why are bombardment tf's assumed to close to the range of the smallest calibre gun in the fleet...wouldn't it be more logical to stay at the largest gun in the fleets range, with the lighter ships serving the escort role?
"2) If you must enter a known minefield, try moving adjacent to the hex on one turn and then advancing into the field on the second turn. The ships will move at a slower rate and hit fewer mines."
This seems to make the whole mine warfare thing even more convoluted...there is already quite a bit of micro-management involved.
"3) If you suspect enemy sub activity in the mined area, send a submarine hunter-killer task force of many destroyer type ships to the adjacent hex, as described in item 2, and then advance into the hex. In they arrive in daytime, moving slowly, the destroyer types will most likely be able to "sweep" some of the mines. You might also place a similar force 2 hexes closer to the Japanese side of the map, so that if the submarine runs from the first group, he may run into the second."
Why are subs so effective at enemy bases in the first place?
Most of my encounters with subs at my own bases have occurred at night, in shallow water with the sub on the surface, with the sub maneuvering in or around friendly and enemy minefields, ie virtually unmaneuverable...yet the sub not only gets in a strike on my tf's but is at leisure to pick and choose it's target, then somehow get away most of the time.
"4) A mine sweeper will remove 50% of the mines in each minefield it sweeps on the first sweep and then 50% of the remaining mines on each subsequent sweep. You might try creating a transport task force with a couple minesweepers and a dozen destroyers. This should do the trick, if they approach slowly. If you feel the enemy submarine is targeting the minesweeper, to the exclusion of the destroyers, you might also include a sort of Q-ship. This would be a nice, fat transport or cargo ship. The submarine would most likely target this type ship, first."
When I have included MSW with DD's SC's etc in a transport tf without the Q-ship, the sub has never targetted anything but the MSW.
What is the probabilty of the sub targetting a ship other than the MSW in those circumstances?
"5) Lastly, if the mines and enemy submarines are close to your bases, you might increase air based anti-submarine forces. Move several bomber, patrol, dive bomber and torpedo bomber groups as close as you can get them, along with your carriers, and put everything on 100% ASW. This should chase off the submarine, if not destroy it."
Well, even with virtually everything on ASW, my planes have about as much chance of sinking these subs as I have of winning lotto.
Even an attack is a real surprise.
You are joking with your suggestion to move everything, including carriers to anti-sub patrol the bases in question every time a sub shows up...right?
PS. Another MSW, escorted by 20 SC's DD's just sunk at my base by Laurent's subs while posting this.
This aspect of the game is totally broken Mike and I must say that if you do not see it the prospects of WITP turning out well seem pretty remote.
I understand you are not in charge of design but at least some semblance of recognition that a problem or two might exist would be reassuring.
I never thought I'd say this but maybe Tristanjohn is right, WITP is doomed
Never give up, never surrender
Mines in UV v2.30 ...
Hi all,
I wrote this for UV forum months ago (when UV v2.30 was made) and Matrix/2By3
people confirmed that what I wrote is correct.
I hope this can help a bit...
Mines in UV
#1
Mine depots are located at Truk (for Japanese) and at Brisbane and Noumea (for
Allies).
#2
Minefields are divided into "defensive" and "offensive".
The "defensive" minefields are those you lay in HEXes with friendly base
(airfield and/or port) or friendly "dot".
The "offensive" minefields are those you lay in all other HEXes.
Therefore you can have friendly "defensive"/"offensive" minefields and enemy
"defensive"/"offensive" minefields.
#3
While the friendly "defensive" minefields are well mapped and maintained, the
friendly "offensive" minefields are not and there is a chance to hit them with
your own ships.
Friendly TFs will avoid friendly "offensive" minefields, when determining
shipping routes.
#4
Minefields can be laid in shallow water and in deep water HEXes.
Minefields placed in deep water decay at the rate of 50% per day. These either
sink, float away or the moorings break.
#5
In base HEXes the minefields are predominantly laid in vicinity of harbor and
shoreline.
For all other HEXes the mines are spread out (spaced) through entire HEX area.
#6
All task forces have small chance to stumble into "defensive" minefields in
enemy base HEXes.
A somewhat greater chance to hit the enemy "defensive"/"offensive" minefield
occurs if no enemy base is located in the HEX, but as these mines are more
spread out, the chances of an individual ship hitting a mine are lessened.
The "Transport" and "Fast transport" task forces with enemy base that contains
"defensive" minefield as a destination have a much greater chance to hit the
minefield, since they come closer to the shoreline and or port.
IMPORTANT:
This means that MSW and DMS ships should be part of "Transport" and/or "Fast
Transport" invasion TF because this is the only way you can get them close
enough to shoreline to clear the bulk of enemy "defensive" mines placed there.
Also this means that the "defensive" minefields have small impact on enemy
"Bombardment" TFs and submarine TFs. This is because the "Bombardment" TF
would never come close enough to shoreline (they fire from distance) and the
submarines would wait outside harbor (and therefore also be to far away from
minefield).
#7
MSW and DMS ships in "Mine Warfare" TF can clear:
- Friendly "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "defensive" minefields
Additionally Destroyers (DD), Destroyer Escorts (DE), Patrol Gunboats (PG),
Patrol Craft (PC) and Destroyer Transports (APD) have been given very limited,
ad hoc, mine destruction abilities. Each can locate and destroy a few mines by
shooting them, if the crew makes the proper experience rolls and spot other
mines, as well. This awareness of the minefield will allow the task force
entering the minefield to be hit by fewer mines. This ability only applies in
cases where the task force of which they are apart in danger of hitting mines
and if that task force is traveling less than 7 hexes that turn.
Also, due to small minesweeping boats not detailed in the game, task forces at
friendly, larger ports now have less chance of hitting enemy mines than at
friendly, smaller ports.
Leo "Apollo11"
I wrote this for UV forum months ago (when UV v2.30 was made) and Matrix/2By3
people confirmed that what I wrote is correct.
I hope this can help a bit...
Mines in UV
#1
Mine depots are located at Truk (for Japanese) and at Brisbane and Noumea (for
Allies).
#2
Minefields are divided into "defensive" and "offensive".
The "defensive" minefields are those you lay in HEXes with friendly base
(airfield and/or port) or friendly "dot".
The "offensive" minefields are those you lay in all other HEXes.
Therefore you can have friendly "defensive"/"offensive" minefields and enemy
"defensive"/"offensive" minefields.
#3
While the friendly "defensive" minefields are well mapped and maintained, the
friendly "offensive" minefields are not and there is a chance to hit them with
your own ships.
Friendly TFs will avoid friendly "offensive" minefields, when determining
shipping routes.
#4
Minefields can be laid in shallow water and in deep water HEXes.
Minefields placed in deep water decay at the rate of 50% per day. These either
sink, float away or the moorings break.
#5
In base HEXes the minefields are predominantly laid in vicinity of harbor and
shoreline.
For all other HEXes the mines are spread out (spaced) through entire HEX area.
#6
All task forces have small chance to stumble into "defensive" minefields in
enemy base HEXes.
A somewhat greater chance to hit the enemy "defensive"/"offensive" minefield
occurs if no enemy base is located in the HEX, but as these mines are more
spread out, the chances of an individual ship hitting a mine are lessened.
The "Transport" and "Fast transport" task forces with enemy base that contains
"defensive" minefield as a destination have a much greater chance to hit the
minefield, since they come closer to the shoreline and or port.
IMPORTANT:
This means that MSW and DMS ships should be part of "Transport" and/or "Fast
Transport" invasion TF because this is the only way you can get them close
enough to shoreline to clear the bulk of enemy "defensive" mines placed there.
Also this means that the "defensive" minefields have small impact on enemy
"Bombardment" TFs and submarine TFs. This is because the "Bombardment" TF
would never come close enough to shoreline (they fire from distance) and the
submarines would wait outside harbor (and therefore also be to far away from
minefield).
#7
MSW and DMS ships in "Mine Warfare" TF can clear:
- Friendly "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "offensive" minefields
- Enemy "defensive" minefields
Additionally Destroyers (DD), Destroyer Escorts (DE), Patrol Gunboats (PG),
Patrol Craft (PC) and Destroyer Transports (APD) have been given very limited,
ad hoc, mine destruction abilities. Each can locate and destroy a few mines by
shooting them, if the crew makes the proper experience rolls and spot other
mines, as well. This awareness of the minefield will allow the task force
entering the minefield to be hit by fewer mines. This ability only applies in
cases where the task force of which they are apart in danger of hitting mines
and if that task force is traveling less than 7 hexes that turn.
Also, due to small minesweeping boats not detailed in the game, task forces at
friendly, larger ports now have less chance of hitting enemy mines than at
friendly, smaller ports.
Leo "Apollo11"
Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!
A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
-
LargeSlowTarget
- Posts: 4899
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Mike Wood wrote: In they arrive in daytime, moving slowly, the destroyer types will most likely be able to "sweep" some of the mines.
I don't find that destroyer and patrol craft types' abiltity to sweep 'some' mines is 'very limited' in UV. I often see groups of enemy DDs etc. locating and destroying several mines in a row, even at night and bad weather (saw four PCs destroying 11 mines at night just the other day). I'm asking myself how they can even spot mines under these conditions? The first hint for the presence of an unknown minefield should be a loud 'BOOM'. AFAIK moored mines are supposed to float several feet under the surface and thus should be hard to spot in daylight and impossible to spot at night. Of course now and then a mine would break loose and float away, making spotting and destroying easier. I also agree that under very good conditions detecting mines by visual sighting of 'dark spots under the surface' may be possible, but in UV this happens way to often even under adverse conditions. I have wondered aloud in earlier posts about this IMO bizarre minesweeping ability, but wasn't honored with an explanation at that time. Perhaps now someone could explain to my why this feature makes sense?Apollo 11 wrote: Additionally Destroyers (DD), Destroyer Escorts (DE), Patrol Gunboats (PG), Patrol Craft (PC) and Destroyer Transports (APD) have been given very limited, ad hoc, mine destruction abilities. Each can locate and destroy a few mines by shooting them, if the crew makes the proper experience rolls and spot other mines, as well. This awareness of the minefield will allow the task force entering the minefield to be hit by fewer mines. This ability only applies in
cases where the task force of which they are apart in danger of hitting mines
and if that task force is traveling less than 7 hexes that turn.
Well, my experience with capital ships just doubled last night as 2 or 3 CA's in an allied bombardment force hit my minefield at Gili Gili (defensive type). But that makes it 5-6 capital ships hitting mines in some 40-50 bombardment missions in mined hexes so far (I did not keep count, but did notice very few capital ships ever took damage, and that was negligible as on several occasions a surface action occured right after and the ships showed little damage (rarely any smoke at all)).
For the rest I agree that defending minefields with subs seems rather gamey to say the least (yes subs might respond to a MSW TF in a hex for more then a turn or two, but it certainly does not seem logical to have subs lying in wait for such a TF to appear). From the technical point of view, MSW vessels (not DMS) would be at the bottom of those ships I'd see submarines target, with for the Japs CV, CVL, CVE, BB, CA and CL at the top, for the allies AO, TK, AP etc. To me, MSW vessels make as unlikely a target as PC's or PG's. All forms of destroyers somewhere in the middle as they make worthwhile targets but be rather deadly for the sub. But it's true, I've seen small vessels target regularly by subs in the game (last night an ai US sub even sunk one of my barges by gunfire, though you could say that was a no risk job (8 barge TF) and as such maybe not all that unlikely).
Finally, minewarfare should be an important part of the game, but possibly players overdo it (the ai doesn't seem to do that as I have had no problem yet, actually the ai doesn't use offensive mines enough I'd say). From what I've read here, I guess I'd favour a house rule of no subs lurking in minefields for Pbem games (I haven't played UV against a human player yet as my new PC is not hooked up to the web for now (I'm a Mac person still and only slowly moving over), so my personal experiences in that area are limited). Possibly also limit offensive minelaying in some way (but other then all or nothing, or possibly no high seas mining I see no controlable way, and I for one would be absolutely against a no mines game or a no offensive mines game).
Marc aka Caran...
For the rest I agree that defending minefields with subs seems rather gamey to say the least (yes subs might respond to a MSW TF in a hex for more then a turn or two, but it certainly does not seem logical to have subs lying in wait for such a TF to appear). From the technical point of view, MSW vessels (not DMS) would be at the bottom of those ships I'd see submarines target, with for the Japs CV, CVL, CVE, BB, CA and CL at the top, for the allies AO, TK, AP etc. To me, MSW vessels make as unlikely a target as PC's or PG's. All forms of destroyers somewhere in the middle as they make worthwhile targets but be rather deadly for the sub. But it's true, I've seen small vessels target regularly by subs in the game (last night an ai US sub even sunk one of my barges by gunfire, though you could say that was a no risk job (8 barge TF) and as such maybe not all that unlikely).
Finally, minewarfare should be an important part of the game, but possibly players overdo it (the ai doesn't seem to do that as I have had no problem yet, actually the ai doesn't use offensive mines enough I'd say). From what I've read here, I guess I'd favour a house rule of no subs lurking in minefields for Pbem games (I haven't played UV against a human player yet as my new PC is not hooked up to the web for now (I'm a Mac person still and only slowly moving over), so my personal experiences in that area are limited). Possibly also limit offensive minelaying in some way (but other then all or nothing, or possibly no high seas mining I see no controlable way, and I for one would be absolutely against a no mines game or a no offensive mines game).
Marc aka Caran...
Marc aka Caran... ministerialis
I don't like mines. I specifically dislike Bombardment TF's being so vunerable to mines. The severe lack on both sides of MSWs makes this particularly troublesome.
I played a game where mines by house rules were only allowed at the following locales - All Auto vicotry locations, Shortland, Rabaul, Kaveing, Truk and Lae (the default IJN bases which have mines). A very enjoyable and hassale free game. But then I play mainly for fun.
I played a game where mines by house rules were only allowed at the following locales - All Auto vicotry locations, Shortland, Rabaul, Kaveing, Truk and Lae (the default IJN bases which have mines). A very enjoyable and hassale free game. But then I play mainly for fun.
In time of war the first casualty is truth. - Boake Carter
I don't know guys. I am Drex's opponent. That naumea Bombard run was my first experience with defensive mines. Still I sent in 4 BB, and only bb's. Only one came out unscathed, the other three went back to tokyo they were so badly hurt.
Just didn't seem right to me. I didn't even get mine hit messages. I found out by going to the fleet the next day and find out why they hell i didn't get a satasfacty bombardment message.
Just didn't seem right to me. I didn't even get mine hit messages. I found out by going to the fleet the next day and find out why they hell i didn't get a satasfacty bombardment message.
Well, in one game with Swoop I was playing the Japanese and he had invaded Tulagi and Lunga. I mined the heck out of those ports..and knocked out quite a few of his transports which were reinforceing and supplying those bases.
Later, once I built up enough of a force, I invaded those bases.
MY transports were decimated by my own mines. It was almost silly how many were seriously damaged...and quite a few sunk. Not just the transports either..capital ships too.
Now, I can understand this happening to a degree...but SURELY the minelayers would have mapped those minefields in real life and transmitted this to the fleet.
I still took the bases...but lost alot of victory points needlesly.
Later, once I built up enough of a force, I invaded those bases.
MY transports were decimated by my own mines. It was almost silly how many were seriously damaged...and quite a few sunk. Not just the transports either..capital ships too.
Now, I can understand this happening to a degree...but SURELY the minelayers would have mapped those minefields in real life and transmitted this to the fleet.
I still took the bases...but lost alot of victory points needlesly.
I believe defensive minefields- mines laid in your own bases- are historical and not gamey. How else to deter an opponent from sashaying into your size nine port any time he wants? both sides used them and used a lot of them. As far as offensive mines go, subs can only lay a few at a time and it is difficult to lay heavy minefields close to enemy ports without being seen( unless you use a wofpack of subs). Mines are here to stay. Learn to deal with them.
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
I can accept that mines are here to stay and I am learning to deal with them.Drex wrote: Mines are here to stay. Learn to deal with them.
Mines are an important part of the game and UV would be poorer without them.
Noone is suggesting that mines should be done away with.
However, there are aspects mines and their counters that need looking at.
For example, apparently the only way to use MSW if an opponent is guarding his offensive minefields with subs, is to use MSW in a transport taskforce with a few juicy AP's or such.
Either that or chase the subs away with hunter-killer groups...then play a guessing game with your opponent as to when you send the MSW in again.
More of the general impression of mines dominating the game is the result.
If a MSW enters such a hex in any other circumstances, even when escorted with a score of DD's etc there is a very high probability the MSW will be sunk.
The sub will simply ignore the escorting vessels.
Where is it written in stone that 2by3's first and apparently hurried thoughts on mines and associated strategems were absolutely correct and unquestionable?
Never give up, never surrender
while we're on the subject
the manual states that you have a chance of hitting a mine when you [/B]enter a minefield hex, but do you also run a risk of hitting a mine with the same TF if you stay in that hex?
I sailed a large invasion TF into a mined port and 8 ships hit mines, next turn while unloading, 3 more ships of the same TF hit mines. Was this supposed to happen or is the manual incorrect?,,, or am I missing something?......................Ken
I sailed a large invasion TF into a mined port and 8 ships hit mines, next turn while unloading, 3 more ships of the same TF hit mines. Was this supposed to happen or is the manual incorrect?,,, or am I missing something?......................Ken
[QUOTE=Mike_B20]I can accept that mines are here to stay and I am learning to deal with them.
Mines are an important part of the game and UV would be poorer without them.
Noone is suggesting that mines should be done away with.
However, there are aspects mines and their counters that need looking at.
For example, apparently the only way to use MSW if an opponent is guarding his offensive minefields with subs, is to use MSW in a transport taskforce with a few juicy AP's or such.
Either that or chase the subs away with hunter-killer groups...then play a guessing game with your opponent as to when you send the MSW in again.
More of the general impression of mines dominating the game is the result.
If a MSW enters such a hex in any other circumstances, even when escorted with a score of DD's etc there is a very high probability the MSW will be sunk.
The sub will simply ignore the escorting vessels.
Where is it written in stone that 2by3's first and apparently hurried thoughts on mines and associated strategems were absolutely correct and unquestionable?[/QUOTEThere are many aspects of UV that could use revision but it is still playable as is. UV will never be changed unless 2x 3 licenses the game to another party who is willing to deal with those issues. So when I say "deal with it" , I mean there will be no more changes to UV by the present designers. There must be methods to deal with the Sub/minfield/MSW problem within the game system, i.e., special tactics,etc. I have never had that tried on me so I don't have the answer but it must be out there.
Mines are an important part of the game and UV would be poorer without them.
Noone is suggesting that mines should be done away with.
However, there are aspects mines and their counters that need looking at.
For example, apparently the only way to use MSW if an opponent is guarding his offensive minefields with subs, is to use MSW in a transport taskforce with a few juicy AP's or such.
Either that or chase the subs away with hunter-killer groups...then play a guessing game with your opponent as to when you send the MSW in again.
More of the general impression of mines dominating the game is the result.
If a MSW enters such a hex in any other circumstances, even when escorted with a score of DD's etc there is a very high probability the MSW will be sunk.
The sub will simply ignore the escorting vessels.
Where is it written in stone that 2by3's first and apparently hurried thoughts on mines and associated strategems were absolutely correct and unquestionable?[/QUOTEThere are many aspects of UV that could use revision but it is still playable as is. UV will never be changed unless 2x 3 licenses the game to another party who is willing to deal with those issues. So when I say "deal with it" , I mean there will be no more changes to UV by the present designers. There must be methods to deal with the Sub/minfield/MSW problem within the game system, i.e., special tactics,etc. I have never had that tried on me so I don't have the answer but it must be out there.
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
There are many aspects of UV that could use revision_ just read any post by Tristanjohn- but until 2x3 licenses the game to another party willing to deal with them, we have to play the game "as is"- and it still is eminently playable. there must be methods within the game that can be developed(or already are) to deal with the sub/minefiled/MSW problem. I haven't had it used against me so I don't have a tactic for it - yet.Mike_B20 wrote:I can accept that mines are here to stay and I am learning to deal with them.
Mines are an important part of the game and UV would be poorer without them.
Noone is suggesting that mines should be done away with.
However, there are aspects mines and their counters that need looking at.
For example, apparently the only way to use MSW if an opponent is guarding his offensive minefields with subs, is to use MSW in a transport taskforce with a few juicy AP's or such.
Either that or chase the subs away with hunter-killer groups...then play a guessing game with your opponent as to when you send the MSW in again.
More of the general impression of mines dominating the game is the result.
If a MSW enters such a hex in any other circumstances, even when escorted with a score of DD's etc there is a very high probability the MSW will be sunk.
The sub will simply ignore the escorting vessels.
Where is it written in stone that 2by3's first and apparently hurried thoughts on mines and associated strategems were absolutely correct and unquestionable?
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"
Unless you can clear the port of mines you will keep hitting them as long as you stay there.wissooner wrote:the manual states that you have a chance of hitting a mine when you [/B]enter a minefield hex, but do you also run a risk of hitting a mine with the same TF if you stay in that hex?
I sailed a large invasion TF into a mined port and 8 ships hit mines, next turn while unloading, 3 more ships of the same TF hit mines. Was this supposed to happen or is the manual incorrect?,,, or am I missing something?......................Ken
Col Saito: "Don't speak to me of rules! This is war! It is not a game of cricket!"