OT: Coronavirus 2, the No Politics Version

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth



We have been through this a dozen times. New York is near or at the bottom of the nation average for nursing home mortality. That is just an inconvenient fact I’m afraid. As for flattening a curve? Korea had no curve to flatten so you can’t really emulate them in that respect. Most of the United States has a curve to flatten. New York remains the best example of how to do just that.

So after a dozen times you still can't comprehend it. [&:]

Korea had no curve to flatten because they had few cases because of their preparedness. That is what you want to emulate. Not New York City which could not even maintain their stockpile of masks and ventilators. That was set up a few years back. But New York City is not the only entity which did not maintain their stockpiles. But the best is not needing the stuff in the first place.

I think you missed John's point - that NY is a better case in point because it did have a massive outbreak and had to suppress it with max effort at every level. Because Korea never got a massive outbreak, it does not show the example of how to overcome it.

I don't know what the stuff about "maintaining stockpiles" has to do with it - as the first place in the US with a massive problem, NY was first to try and get its hands on PPE and met all kinds of interference from various quarters. And some of the PPE from National Stockpiles transferred to NY was faulty, time expired junk. In all the chaos it would be understandable if something was not handled well - but they knew what they were trying to do and they put max effort into doing it. If there is any lesson from NY and Italy, it is that half-hearted measures are not enough - you need to get strict with the people to ensure the virus does not spread faster than it can be dealt with because there will always be some who think the rules don't apply to them.

When Bloomberg was the mayor, New York City had a stockpile. You need to rotate your stockpile so things do not get expired. As an example, if they had an item with a five year life, release it after say 4 years to get used but replace it with fresh items. First In, First Out (FIFO) as the bean counters would say. That goes for any entity that has a stockpile of anything, including a family.

Go back and read what Korea had set up years before this outbreak. Something like that, thought out and tested, would be far better than what happened elsewhere. Taiwan and Japan also had good outcomes. But also, the places that had the population vaccinated by the TB vaccines had better outcomes because of the benefits there so maybe get back with those. There are different varieties of said vaccine so check so see which ones seemed to have better outcomes than others.

[CaptBeefheart]

We did have a pretty big outbreak in Korea centered around one large church in Daegu and fortunately, because of our MERS fiasco in 2015, we had legislation and a testing infrastructure in place to deal with it. If we hadn't had the MERS fiasco in 2015 I'm not sure how this would have played out (it's hard to tell exactly since Japan hasn't been completely stellar in tracing and testing and still seems to be doing fairly well). We also force anyone entering the country, except diplomats and I'd guess some other VIPs like the head of Samsung, who recently went to China, to undergo a 14-day quarantine upon arrival. One American buddy of mine has done the quarantine twice. Luckily his company is cool with that.

Another helpful aspect is this virus hasn't been politicized here at all and there was even a legislative election in April. The opposition party hasn't seen it as a winning issue. Hospitals in Korea have been prescribing hydroxychloroquine, broad spectrum antibiotics and anti-HIV drugs from Day 1 since there was a SARS study from 2003 showing they were effective in fighting SARS. I don't know if they've adapted that treatment regime since but the level of deaths here is quite low.

My cousin who is a doc in DC just took a Phase III vaccine or placebo yesterday. Let's hope that trial works out well and the world gets back to normal sooner rather than later.

Cheers,
CB

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

You missed the chance for bonus points by not referencing blitz spirit, by the way.

warspite1

No reason for you to bring that up. But I shouldn't be surprised. Whether you like it or not - and clearly you hate it - a 'Blitz Spirit' did exist. Oh of course it has been blown up for propaganda purposes initially and then, because of a typical human trait to romanticise the past. But it was there. For a great many.

As the early weeks of this pandemic showed, events like this or a world war bring out the best in people and the worst in people. So with the pandemic, so with the war, there were those seeking to cash in and use it as a chance to make at others expense. But for a great many it was a time to do their bit and often more. We've seen this with the pandemic. I just don't understand why you feel the need to hate on that sort of thing.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Depending on something so vague in the context of this pandemic has been interpreted as dangerous, and the shift in messaging from "stay at home" to the much less clear "stay alert" was picked up on by many.

warspite1

So where - in "Stay Alert" have the people been told its okay to gather in large groups without any concern (football celebrations / beaches / pubs / marches)? Where have they been told this?

Yes, we have personal responsibility. You seem to prefer a nanny state where we are all told what to do and when to do it by a Government.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart

We did have a pretty big outbreak in Korea centered around one large church in Daegu and fortunately, because of our MERS fiasco in 2015, we had legislation and a testing infrastructure in place to deal with it. If we hadn't had the MERS fiasco in 2015 I'm not sure how this would have played out (it's hard to tell exactly since Japan hasn't been completely stellar in tracing and testing and still seems to be doing fairly well). We also force anyone entering the country, except diplomats and I'd guess some other VIPs like the head of Samsung, who recently went to China, to undergo a 14-day quarantine upon arrival. One American buddy of mine has done the quarantine twice. Luckily his company is cool with that.

Another helpful aspect is this virus hasn't been politicized here at all and there was even a legislative election in April. The opposition party hasn't seen it as a winning issue. Hospitals in Korea have been prescribing hydroxychloroquine, broad spectrum antibiotics and anti-HIV drugs from Day 1 since there was a SARS study from 2003 showing they were effective in fighting SARS. I don't know if they've adapted that treatment regime since but the level of deaths here is quite low.

My cousin who is a doc in DC just took a Phase III vaccine or placebo yesterday. Let's hope that trial works out well and the world gets back to normal sooner rather than later.

Cheers,
CB

Yes, exactly. South Korea is the model for not letting things get bad in the first place. And as you point out that takes some pre-prep based on experience. Most other places in the world haven't had quite the same experience (although it's surprising more weren't better prepared considering all countries have some kind of governmental entity that is supposed to be preparing for things like pandemics and could easily see what SK had been doing).

As for NY, no other place in the world (before the summer at least) had the same conditions of runaway infections, lack of testing, and high density population with all of the other risk factors. The fact that NY couldn't know what it was facing because testing wasn't in place makes it impossible to have implemented the methods of SK or Germany.

Where they've been successful, like Italy, is keeping measures in place long enough to get case numbers low, continuing to advise social distancing and mask wearing and beginning a track and trace program (whether or not it's working perfectly, it's at least attempting to do this part).

So what should other states be doing? Well, probably locking down, getting case numbers low enough that you can eventually putting track and trace in place.

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

Boy, have you even read the reasoning behind mind_messing line of thought? Try putting your obsession for "everybody is fixated with party politics!" for 5 seconds - mostly because is not true. It is impossible to express an opinion on how the crisis is/should be managed without going with or against a political party line.

Of course if you assume that every freely expressed opinion is automatically a political declaration, then, yes, I agree that some people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

[mind_messing]

No reason for you to bring that up. But I shouldn't be surprised. Whether you like it or not - and clearly you hate it - a 'Blitz Spirit' did exist. Oh of course it has been blown up for propaganda purposes initially and then, because of a typical human trait to romanticise the past. But it was there. For a great many.

Well, if you were going for the wartime comparisons, you may as well go all the way seeing it has become something of a meme.

I've gave no views on my position on blitz spirit, so a bit of a stretch to assume my hatred for it - I find it ironic more than anything.

As the early weeks of this pandemic showed, events like this or a world war bring out the best in people and the worst in people. So with the pandemic, so with the war, there were those seeking to cash in and use it as a chance to make at others expense. But for a great many it was a time to do their bit and often more. We've seen this with the pandemic. I just don't understand why you feel the need to hate on that sort of thing.

So somehow you've managed to make the cognitive jump from criticism of the government to profiteering. Not quite sure how you managed that

I am, perhaps, slightly more cynical than yourself in regards to the narrative being constructed around the pandemic. The notion of the "blitz spirit", in the sense of a cheerful optimism in the face of constant danger, masks the fact that the government failed to protect the NHS.

So where - in "Stay Alert" have the people been told its okay to gather in large groups without any concern (football celebrations / beaches / pubs / marches)? Where have they been told this?

When the message changed from "Stay at Home" to "Stay Alert". The difference is obvious. Here's an example for you to consider.

You can do all the things you listed and still be "staying alert". It also represents a deviation from the scientific advice, which (surprise surprise was, and still remains, stay at home).

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/medialse/2020/0 ... -response/

Yes, we have personal responsibility. You seem to prefer a nanny state where we are all told what to do and when to do it by a Government.

I think, in the context of a global health pandemic, that everyone being told what to do and when to do it seems most appropriate.

Would your preference be that Leicester didn't have a lockdown, and instead the government appealed to the sense of personal responsibility of citizens to stay indoors?

[RangerJoe]

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency. [8|]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency. [8|]

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency. [8|]

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency. [8|]

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

It can happen. It has in the UK.

It is ideologically unappealing to some to do so, however.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

So people have rights until there is a pandemic or another emergency. [8|]

The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

This is all just too broad to be interesting. What is lockdown to you? It's been a lot of things in a lot of places.

You're forgetting that no one wants to the economy to crash, but the countries where it's continued to function locked down early to avoid high case numbers, tested like crazy, and opened up quickly once case numbers are low. Many countries that had short or no full lockdowns prevented catastrophic outbreaks AND kept the economy from crashing completely.

It's not black and white.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




The right to life is listed before liberty and happiness in the constitution.

Also pretty hard to have the last two without the first

Then the ability to earn a living which makes it hard to have a complete shutdown. That is why what the medical doctors recommend can't always happen.

It can happen. It has in the UK.

It is ideologically unappealing to some to do so, however.

It did not happen in the UK or elsewhere. A lockdown, a complete shutdown, means that no one at all leaves their dwelling. Not for any reason at all. That would be best to prevent the spread but it won't happen. Nor will bricking up all exits including windows of a dwelling where someone has the disease which did happen during the Black Death.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's impossible to discuss Covid without touching on the political issues.

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

Boy, have you even read the reasoning behind mind_messing line of thought? Try putting your obsession for "everybody is fixated with party politics!" for 5 seconds - mostly because is not true. It is impossible to express an opinion on how the crisis is/should be managed without going with or against a political party line.

Of course if you assume that every freely expressed opinion is automatically a political declaration, then, yes, I agree that some people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

warspite1

Yes I recall you like hunting in packs. Maybe makes you feel big.

As for your post, if you want to comment on someone's post have the common courtesy to understand the point first.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

At the moment the UK is only worse than San Marino and Belgium in terms of deaths per population. We are currently at 677/million. That is worse than Italy (581) who had the disadvantage of being hit first. It is worse than Portugal (169) who are one of the poorest countries in Europe. That figure is 6 times worse than Germany (110).

I cannot see how it is partisan politics to suggest that things have gone deeply wrong in the UK. Following on from that I cannot see how it is partisan politics to suggest that our government bears a significant responsibility for us ending up in that position. If the buck doesn't stop with them who does it stop with?

[fcooke]

Tough one. Generally speaking, most govts could could have done a better job IMO. But I agree with RJ - there is no reason for the govts to take on overly OTT restrictions on activity. I know the side effects of lockdown are killing people. Not hitting the news yet for some reason but it is happening.

Hopefully that is not considered political.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: warspite1

warspite1

Nope. It's just that people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

Boy, have you even read the reasoning behind mind_messing line of thought? Try putting your obsession for "everybody is fixated with party politics!" for 5 seconds - mostly because is not true. It is impossible to express an opinion on how the crisis is/should be managed without going with or against a political party line.

Of course if you assume that every freely expressed opinion is automatically a political declaration, then, yes, I agree that some people aren't grown up enough to put party politics aside for 5 seconds.

warspite1

Yes I recall you like hunting in packs. Maybe makes you feel big.

As for your post, if you want to comment on someone's post have the common courtesy to understand the point first.

As you know this is a forum for all interested parties, so we're all able to talk part in discussions. To suggest it's innapropiate to comment, that someone is "hunting in packs" goes against the spirit of dialogue here.

[39battalion]

I was surprised to see somebody in an earlier post citing The Guardian as a source of reliable non-political information.

I lived in London for many years (most recently in 2017) and I am familiar with the British press. The Guardian is not an authoritative, objective source of information. It is the paper of choice for those with left wing, and sometimes extreme left wing, views.

It promotes identity politics, victimhood and cancel culture. In these respects it is a print version of the twitter sewer.

In this discussion it is best to reference reputable medical sources of information.

[Zorch]

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I was surprised to see somebody in an earlier post citing The Guardian as a source of reliable non-political information.

I lived in London for many years (most recently in 2017) and I am familiar with the British press. The Guardian is not an authoritative, objective source of information. It is the paper of choice for those with left wing, and sometimes extreme left wing, views.

It promotes identity politics, victimhood and cancel culture. In these respects it is a print version of the twitter sewer.

In this discussion it is best to reference reputable medical sources of information.

I strongly object to your characterization of the Guardian.

This thread has turned political and is likely to get locked. [:(]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: 39battalion


I was surprised to see somebody in an earlier post citing The Guardian as a source of reliable non-political information.

I lived in London for many years (most recently in 2017) and I am familiar with the British press. The Guardian is not an authoritative, objective source of information. It is the paper of choice for those with left wing, and sometimes extreme left wing, views.

It promotes identity politics, victimhood and cancel culture. In these respects it is a print version of the twitter sewer.

In this discussion it is best to reference reputable medical sources of information.

This is the kind of comment we don't need. You can choose your information sources as you wish, but this is not a thread about media slant. Please leave this out and if you have information to contradict something that is posted please offer it with sources.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Tough one. Generally speaking, most govts could could have done a better job IMO. But I agree with RJ - there is no reason for the govts to take on overly OTT restrictions on activity. I know the side effects of lockdown are killing people. Not hitting the news yet for some reason but it is happening.

Hopefully that is not considered political.

Actually it's all over the news that there are negative effects from lockdowns. Just do some searching. It might not be in the top three articles, but there is something virtually every day.

There are also some benefits to reduced mobility, industrial output and other effects of measures put in place. I've posted a number of studies in both threads on this subject showing evidence of health improvements for those vulnerable to pollution, reduction in stress levels and overall better physical health from getting exercise and using physical rather than mechanical mass transport.

It's hard to know how it all balances out and we likely won't know until much later if at all the real balancing of effects.