Hell Hath Frozen Over (Scout1 (J) vs Lowpe (A)

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Almost done the first turn, but I have guests coming for dinner...so I won't finish till tomorrow.

A few things to tweak yet, and have yet to set the night time intercept of the KB by heavy cruisers. Probably a mistake this early...but it isn't a full KB.

For dinner or to dinner? There is a difference in meaning. [;)] I mean, you might have lobsters coming for dinner . . .

I don't think that it is a mistake to put a hurt on the KB or any part of it. Did you ascertain how many carriers were involved in the Pearl Harbor strike? If so, could the augmented air groups of the Enterprise and the Lexington be used against them? I mean that the Wake fighters could deploy to the Big E and the Lexington has Wind Indicator dive bombers on board.

BTW, those Wind Indicators do have a nice range so they work nicely for Naval Search and ASW functions.

The aircraft numbers on the PH strike looked like the equivalent of three CVs, but the KB graphic shows CVLs as well. I think this mod has a lot of CVLs, including the ones John beefed up with armour that can handle 500 lb bombs and lots of AA.

This is AndyMacs updated scenario 2....not Johns.[:)]

Japan gets in the neighborhood of 30+ ships, mostly destroyers in the 1943 time frame and some tankers, and some light cruisers, plus he either starts with or gets some Q ships which are simply incredibly strong. No word if the Germans show up...like a pocket battleship or submarines. Maybe even Italian subs. I don't know...

Plus it appears he gets more Tojo, and has the option of researching the Sam really early as it is an upgrade from the Zero line.

In addition there is a lot of scattered resource and light industry all over the map, and lots of new dot bases in Burma, China, a few in India, etc. etc.

[BBfanboy]

Thanks for the clarification on the mod. So no extra IJ CVLs at start?

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Thanks for the clarification on the mod. So no extra IJ CVLs at start?

I seriously hope not.[:)]

[RangerJoe]

No extra CVLs at start. That is why I stated that those CVL may actually tankers/oilers since they can by misidentified in the game. That slows the entire task force making it more vulnerable. [:D] Especially of those tankers/oilers use lots of OPs refueling DDs.

I only saw the one Tojo unit. The Tojo now comes in September not June and uses the Ha-34 engine with the Helen.

[rustysi]

but it isn't a full KB.

Your opponent apparently hasn't read Shattered Sword. One of their conclusions was that Japan didn't learn the lesson that any target that was worth the effort was worth the whole KB.[:D]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I only saw the one Tojo unit. The Tojo now comes in September not June and uses the Ha-34 engine with the Helen.

It is a goofy report....mainly because of the change of weather.

Morning Air attack on Hong Kong , at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 118 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 32 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44 Tojo x 8

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x Ki-44 Tojo sweeping at 20000 feet



---------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Hong Kong , at 77,61

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 5 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 1 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-27b Nate x 8
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 12

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 12000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 100 kg GP Bomb



---------------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Hong Kong , at 77,61

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 21 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-44 Tojo x 7

No Japanese losses

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x Ki-44 Tojo sweeping at 20000 feet

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe
Plus it appears he gets more Tojo, and has the option of researching the Sam really early as it is an upgrade from the Zero line.

There is one experimental Tojo sentai at start, with exactly 9 planes and no replacements until the arrival of the airframe with the default date Sep-42

[Lowpe]

Pretty much finished the turn...

as always I try to do something offensive every day, and since this is 2 day turns, I will have to do more than one:

Concentrated 4E bombers and hitting a city.
Put seagulls on 2k naval attack.
Set up a CAP trap.
Patrolling with PT boats.
Dutch subs out patrolling offensively
Laying minefield
Halsey is hunting the KB with heavy cruiser force...they were expendable! Where is Swayback?
Moving on Foochow
Setting up future raids in Philippines and Pacific
Setting up and embarking the push on Wake, Midway, Marcus
Aggressively supplying Sumatra, Malaya, Burma
Naval bombarding Formosa

Probably forgot some stuff...

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
I only saw the one Tojo unit. The Tojo now comes in September not June and uses the Ha-34 engine with the Helen.

Interesting choice in Scenario Design....I suppose it's more realistic, Tojo production didn't really get going until late 1942, and maybe June is too early in-game

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

[RangerJoe]

Did you put your P-40Es on Naval Attack at 1000 feet to attack the Invasion Convoys for Luzon? [8|] That could lead to a [X(]on the Japanese side. [:D]

There is no USS Swayback here.

[Jorge_Stanbury]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

It's a good question; why was it not produced more? Some possibilities:

1. As you say, it simply performs better all-around in-game better than IRL
2. It could be a preference for turning and maneuver vs. speed; IJA and IJN were more used to turning/dog fighting tactics rather than zoom and boom. It could be they preferred more Oscars for this reason
3. Another possibility is production; maybe they just couldn't build more due to engine shortages or limitations at the plant.....Oscar was already in production, so maybe it was just more available

Maybe something else, too. Also, the Japanese expended resources on the Tony, and IIRC they built more of those...certainly more than most players, which is usually NONE. It's possible the Tony was better IRL than in game.

The Tojo to my knowledge wasn't used at all in New Guinea, but the Tony was...and in many ways the Tojo would've been more suitable

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Did you put your P-40Es on Naval Attack at 1000 feet to attack the Invasion Convoys for Luzon? [8|] That could lead to a [X(]on the Japanese side. [:D]

There is no USS Swayback here.

No, the P40s had a more pressing job.

Just kidding about Swayback...in ironman she is 1945 cruiser.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Overall, it seems like the Ki-44 Tojo is much more useful in-game than the IJA thought it was IRL....they never produced more than 30 or 40 a month. For me it's the go-to IJA Fighter until the Frank (though Oscar still has a role)

I also thought a bit about that, would it be that the plane was not as great in RL as it is in game? if this was so great of a plane, they would had certainly mass produce it.

It might also be that the IJA didn't really need something better than the Oscar until Frank/ Tony arrived; the army was fighting in China and Burma, their contribution to the Pacific was minimal up until later in the war

It's a good question; why was it not produced more? Some possibilities:

1. As you say, it simply performs better all-around in-game better than IRL
2. It could be a preference for turning and maneuver vs. speed; IJA and IJN were more used to turning/dog fighting tactics rather than zoom and boom. It could be they preferred more Oscars for this reason
3. Another possibility is production; maybe they just couldn't build more due to engine shortages or limitations at the plant.....Oscar was already in production, so maybe it was just more available

Maybe something else, too. Also, the Japanese expended resources on the Tony, and IIRC they built more of those...certainly more than most players, which is usually NONE. It's possible the Tony was better IRL than in game.

The Tojo to my knowledge wasn't used at all in New Guinea, but the Tony was...and in many ways the Tojo would've been more suitable

The Oscar was used in New Guinea, it was frequently mistaken for the Zero. In fact, it was referred to as the Army Zero. Just think if the Army used Zeros or the Oscar had Zero armament. [X(]

At first the Allies thought that the Tony was a copy of the Me-109. I think that it would have been better then.

[Bif1961]

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

Plus, didn't both Army and Navy put a high premium in long legs?

[Alamander]

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

+1. The Tojo was very effective based on its service record: the most effective Japanese fighter until the Frank and possibly superior to any allied (correction... single-engine) fighter through the first half of 1943. Unfortunately, it received poor reviews from the veteran pilots when first introduced because it was less manueverable (as Bif observes) and because it had poorer visibility from the cockpit than the Oscar. This resulted in a small early-war production run. Also, the Nakajima 34 engine, a highly modified version of the Nakajim 5, I believe, was not in large-scale production, which also encouraged the army to stay with the Oscar. Because of the poor reviews from the elite front-line pilots, who preferred their Oscars, the Tojo was relegated mostly to China. The non-elite pilots there, however, faired much better in the Tojo and much preferred it over the Oscar.

It's role was to be as a pure interceptor, i.e. a CAP fighter exclusively. With the appearance of allied heavy bombers, it was redesigned, probably inappropriately, as a 4E interceptor (the Tojo IIb in game). It faired much better as an air-superiority fighter than as a 4E interceptor, but the Japanese were desperate for anything to counter the 4Es in 1943.

I think an optimized Japanese air doctrine, which the game allows for in PDU:ON via the production system, which learns from the mistakes of the Japanese and the biases of their elite pilots, would emphasize the Tojo over the Oscar, and use the Tojo as an air superiority fighter. The Japanese air-force would have been far more effective for it, as is reflected in any game where the Japanese player puts emphasis on Tojo production early, such as Mr. Kane was fond of doing.

In my game with Mike, 2 squadrons of Tojos in Burma literally turned the tide of the air-war there and put an end to Mike's offensive air campaign: at least for the moment. With 6 or 7 squadrons, the allies can be swept from the skies in 1942, I suspect: again as Mr. Kane was fond of doing.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

The KI-44 was requested by the IJA, to be produced by Nakajima, the same company that just building the Oscar. The KI-44I had a run of 40 aircraft before including a new engine was decided upon. It is unusual for the Japanese and even prewar American aircraft companies to enter into this type of arrangements, to start building a new fighter as soon as they started series production of the newest fighter to equip the IJA squadrons. The Tojo had more characteristics with the modern fighters, higher speed, higher wing loading, more robust construction and eventually wing mounted canons. The pilots initially did not like the Tojo as they still preferred highly maneuverable qualities over anything else. The Tojo proved to be the better aircraft for the type of fighting that would develop and more flexible to upgrading.

Plus, didn't both Army and Navy put a high premium in long legs?

Long legs are nice, much better than short chubby ones, but then you go up from there . . . [:'(]

Yes, endurance counts but it also depends upon the fight that you are in. Offensively, you need to reach out and touch someone but defensively a longer time in the air may not be necessary depending upon your early warning systems.

[Lowpe]

Absolutely no very good hits on Task Force Kongo at Kota Bharu....Phillips! What have you done?

Image courtesy of Intel Monkey.

[Lowpe]

From this you can see our runways are in great shape...