warspite1ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
You hoped I would never run a country because I suggested that Japan not go to war over oil. Wiggle out of that if you can.
And this comment reflects so badly on you. There is nothing for me to wiggle out of because you’ve simply failed to understand the point – and not for the first time. The more we’ve gone back and forth the more you’ve chosen to mis-represent what I’ve said and that is pretty poor show.
I don’t see any point in continuing this monotonous back and forth on what Japan would or wouldn’t do given a change in the start date of Barbarossa. I mean, as tiresome as it is there would at least be some point if the main area of focus was worthwhile. But you admitted yesterday that you aren’t going to provide anything to support your assertion that a Mediterranean-first strategy would see Germany win the war (although you haven’t even said that). As far as you’re concerned there is no need for details, no need for you to explain anything.
So basically you’ve fancifully and self-importantly created a “staff study” that is nothing more than a Nazi wet dream (though I do not suggest you wanted a German victory). You refuse to provide anything worthwhile or interesting to support your scenario.
You seem to equate what is required for war gaming a scenario, with the actual planning and detail required of a real campaign – that is naïve to put it kindly. Your idea of people’s behaviour is pretty alarming too. You think Franco could refuse Hitler’s request to join the Axis, be invaded (with all that means) and then Hitler would allow him to remain as head of Spain. You believe the Spanish would be happy with this because Hitler gives them Gibraltar - yet in real life this wasn’t enough for Franco. You bandy phrases like Vichy Spain around with no concept of what that even means. You think that Mussolini would suborn himself and Italy completely to the will of Hitler as though in a board game and Hitler can order all Italian divisions around at his pleasure; you have absolutely no concept of Goering’s personality and what made him tick, and despite having an overwhelming superiority in numbers you think the Luftwaffe would leave England alone in the summer of 1940 despite all evidence to the contrary; you don’t think the Soviets would see any problem with Germany owning the Turkish Straits; you simply refuse point blank to believe Japan would attack the NEI and the USA, but would attack the NEI alone, even though Japan did the former in real life.
But what is even more surprising – quite shocking actually - is you’ve shown just how little knowledge you actually have about World War II. To be waxing ‘authoritatively’ about the Battle of Britain and not even know when it took place; to talk about what the British may or may not do in an alternate 1940 and not even know about the second BEF, or the start date of Compass, or what Compass was designed to achieve, you talk about Sea Lion and have no concept that the barges you would have the Germans set aside (as a deception) had a very real economic impact. You talk about what Japan may or may not have done had circumstances been different in 1940 and not even know about the invasion dates of the FIC or the action taken by the US in response to each and not even have the slightest understanding of her economic position or how much oil/strategic material she lost to the various embargoes placed against her, you don’t believe the war in China is a drain on resources because you believe it’s ‘on hold’. You state categorically that all European countries surrendered in World War II upon capture of their capital and yet you don’t know about Norway. You simply dismiss the political angles of this scenario through sheer ignorance of Germany’s position and why Hitler chose actions he took in real life – ‘1941 the Germans would occupy Vichy France’ without bothering to ask yourself why Hitler felt he needed Vichy in place; you believe Vichy signed an armistice with the ‘Axis’; you seem to have absolutely no knowledge or understanding of how many divisions it took to occupy Greece and Yugoslavia, and don’t feel it worth mentioning when looking at Spain or Turkey and the further impact on forces available for Barbarossa. You think the Germans – if they were lucky enough to capture Suez intact, would destroy the canal; you think you can talk about Spain and her contribution to Germany post occupation but you have no idea of Spain’s parlous position with food and fuel. You believe she can be plundered for trains (different gauge) and trucks (she doesn’t have – and any she does have taken will make the food situation even worse). You believe the Germans just needed to produce stukas in 1940/41….
We could have saved 5-6 pages or whatever it was on this debate (the below contains as much detail as you’ve actually contributed):
Germany heads south 1940
A staff study by C Lemay
Chapter 1.
The Germans bring an army group, for overwhelming force, to operations in Spain, Turkey and Egypt. Germany make friends with the Spanish and Turks. They then turn on the USSR.
Chapter 2.
The Allies can’t react at all (apart from moving into Libya so they can be surrounded) cos the Germans are demonstrating in the north with barges.
Chapter 3.
Regardless of what happens to them, their economy or military, the Japanese do nothing in order to keep the Americans out of the war until the Germans have won.
Chapter 4.
Tea and Medals
; Julia Child
