USN air combat data from Office of Naval Intelligence

Gary Grigsby's strategic level wargame covering the entire War in the Pacific from 1941 to 1945 or beyond.

Moderators: Joel Billings, wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami

User avatar
TheElf
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 1:46 am
Location: Pax River, MD

Post by TheElf »

Tristanjohn wrote: Wrong re the first part, if I understand you (and that is something I'm learning fast to be not guaranteed, Elf), while the short answer to the section I've emphasized in boldface is: no.
Obviuously not. Has anyone else? I'd really like to hear from anyone who has had difficulty understanding the quotes I have posted, their purpose, OR any on the conclusions I may have drawn.

Regarding the Prop discussion...Are you waiting for a critical juncture to level all the Axis Fanboys with your earth-shattering evidence to support your arguement. Read a couple of posts back. You have quite a few people to convince. Better get cracking dude ;)
Tristanjohn wrote: The long answer to that section is . . . well, long unless I miss my bet, but I haven't composed my reply to that thought yet so we'll see. Meanwhile, I've stuff to do today more pressing than this back-and-forth which-language-do-you-speak? why-can't-you-look-some-of-these-things-up-for-yourself? nonsense. .36 .78

Maybe I'll find time later this evening but I don't know.
You average .78 posts a day. While I avg .36 posts a day. I see your name everywhere I go, While I doubt you'd find mine other than this post here and one or two around the UV/WiTP forums. If you spend less time writing shitloads of useless unresearched/cited(from credible sources)posts, you'd have more time to write fewer, well-researched posts containing useful information that MIGHT support one of your arguements. I think you have the time dude.

PS if you think I'm starting a "Personal attack" domino effect that will get us nowhere, see below.
Tristanjohn wrote: In my absence you'd do yourself a great service to get off this kick of trying to prove TJ wrong and approach these issues with a more open mind and willingness to pursue "truth" wherever that ideal might care to lead . . . for that's the thing to do.

To put it differently, if you could point out errors in my research or thinking then I'd take it as both useful and complimentary for you to so demonstrate; if, on the other hand, you were to expend your energy negatively (i.e., with the sole bent to simply disprove anything I might write merely because I wrote it and you wish to prove me wrong) then I put it to you you're entirely likely to miss the larger "forest of truth" for the "many smaller factual trees" along the way.

But as always, do it your way. :)
This is a direct attack on my intelligence, and my ability to see facts, analyze facts, and form conclusions. And I'm beginning to think that in your absence you'd be doing ALL of us a great service ;) Thus see above.

Nothing you have said in this last post furthers anything resembling this thread's discussion of the Zero AND the P-39. It was entirely a stab at me. And I must say, it cuts deep man, real deep ;)

If this were survivor would you vote me off?

v/r(as usual)
Elf
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

Image
User avatar
TheElf
Posts: 2800
Joined: Wed May 14, 2003 1:46 am
Location: Pax River, MD

Post by TheElf »

TheElf wrote: If you spend less time writing shitloads...
I was certain this would be "Auto-censored" :o . Sorry TJ

v/r
Elf
IN PERPETUUM SINGULARIS SEDES

Image
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

mdiehl wrote:Yep, that's about how it seems to me. Of course there's a certain irony in the phrase "license built" after Dec 1941. Hamilton: "Hey Sumitomo, now that we're at war with each other your license is void." Sumitomo: "OK. Just hand deliver that note to our office in Tokyo and we will comply with our legal obligations." ;)
Well, my business ran short so I'm back early. Just in time, I see, too.
[indent]"While the cat's away the mice will play."
[/indent]You shouldn't go off half-cocked with this "license" stuff. It wasn't anywhere near as bad as it looks on the surface. I researched this last night and I'll more or less paraphrase what I have before me for the gist of it.

The technology Japan was licensed dated back to 1920's for all intents and purposes, and by 1930 Hamilton Standard, working off these ideas, introduced the world's initial workable controllable-pitch propeller. To achieve maximum takeoff power, the pilot shifted a lever in the cockpit, oil pressure from the engine actuated a piston attached to the propeller which twisted the blades to low pitch. The propeller revolved rapidly, taking small bites of air and maximizing thrust. When the aircraft reached cruising altitude the pilot would reposition the lever which changed the blades into high pitch via centrifugal force on two counterweights attached to the hub and blades. About a year down the road HS (collaborating with the Woodward Governor Company) added the constant speed governor to the propeller. This device was known as the "automatic gear shift of the air" and enabled the pilot to choose and maintain an optimum propeller speed during flight no matter the conditions.

I've found a couple of sites (reliable of nature as far as I'm concerned) which peg this second technology as the one Japan got its paws on--it was widely available and used throughout the international commercial aviation industry soon after release. What isn't known is the material on construction Japan used (early-, mid- and late-war) for construction of the propeller. (I assume it was a metal alloy.) What Japan did not get their paws on was the "hydromatic" technology which Hamilton Standard came up with later in the decade.

Technologically marvelous as variable-pitch/constant-speed propellers were in their day advancement in aeronautical design quickly demanded more sophisticated propeller solutions: larger and better powerplants required larger and better-constructed propellers with more finely-tunable pitch characteristics. The faster a plane flew the more strident its demand became for these pitch variations, more maneuverability called for these changes in pitch to be affected at faster and faster intervals in order to maintain constant rpm. Controllable propellers up to that point used internal hydraulic pressure acting on a piston to move blades toward low pitch. Counterweights, mentioned previously, were attached to the root of the blades to provide the force to change blades to high pitch. Actuating forces, however, did not keep pace with the increased size of propeller blades that were designed for larger aircraft and more powerful engines. The introduction of multiengined aircraft to improve flight safety didn’t fully meet this objective, for if an engine failed, its propeller would continue rotating, creating excessive drag and vibration, so that the operative engines didn’t necessarily guarantee a safe landing--the vibration was so severe in some cases the engine separated from the aircraft. Braking the propeller on an inoperative engine--with the blade angle set to the maximum allowable high pitch--became a standard emergency procedure to minimize vibration. But the blade angle this pitch setting still produced high drag, decreasing performance. The propeller brake shoes also needed to be isolated from engine and propeller hub oil to maintain dry surfaces to act immediately to stop the prop, otherwise, the brake drum could overheat and burn out the lining.

Enter the Hydromatic propeller, designed with a larger piston that could be actuated bi-directionally through hydraulics. This piston sat in a dome in front of the propeller and with a longer cam the excursion of the pitch-change cam slot was increased to permit a much wider range of pitch variability as well as allowance for higher slope cam slots which gave a faster rate of pitch change. A flat portion on the cam slot combined with independent oil supply provided a feathering feature, enabling an engine to stopped by turning its propeller blades parallel to the line of flight, thus eliminating a "windmill" effect and subsequent drag and vibration. Bottomline: safer engine shutdown inflight with better control afterward and this is the propeller technology the Allies possessed over and above what was found on "Zeroes." And it was found on a lot of different aircraft. In terms of fighters the 4-blade configurations were used with the Mustang and Thunderbolt, 3-bladed props on the British Wildcat (F4F-4B), Corsair and Hellcat. The Avenger also was fitted out as well most of the level bombers and transports.

Re the Aleutian ("Koga's") A6M2: I still can't find a copy of the report of official test results, only "reports" of The Report, but it would appear that after initial repairs "the boys" fueled Koga's "Zero" with 100 octane and just went for it. Now I can understand how this mistake would have been made--they probably just assumed Japan used the same juice, when in fact no such animal existed within the Imperial Regime.

So right away whatever the test results turned out to be the parameters became corrupted, besides which the tests revealed above all the else the A6M2's relative weaknesses and outright failings, less in the way of aerodynamic innovation--it actually only helped to dispell the "Zero" myth, as it were. (We keep hearing that the Americans stole the design ideas in order to incorporate these in our own aircraft. Nothing could be further from the truth. American and Japanese aeronautical design philosophies did not run together. The Japanese sought to trade compromises in strength and safety and armament in exchange for greater speed and range with the little engines they had to work with, basically. The American design approach thought of safety and durability as qualities equally important to performance and hitting power. Frankly speaking, Japanese airplane design ideas were looked on rather askance by the other side, and were eventually demonstrated in combat to be unsatisfactory aerodynamic compromises all around.)

Ironically, I haven't run down a propeller fix for the P-39 though I wouldn't be at all surprised if it used an American Standard (constant-speed) as well, same as the "Zero." Except in that plane's case it's doubtful a cheaper alloy might have been resorted to, while with the "Zero" that might well have been the case. In Eagles of Mitsubishi Jiro Horikoshi, who headed the project, said this was one of the reasons the original "Zero" frame was so fragile (forced to use an unproven alloy) and in fact on a couple of test flights the prototypical frames simply went Pop!, in a dive one time as I recall.

No matter what prop was spun onto the P-39 its handling characteristics would have been, of course, unique to it, while the "Zero's" would have been the same within its own flight context. A propeller tends to behave differently on each plane it's fitted to and as the demands of a given flight are placed on it. Think of a prop as a sort of wing that converts its lift into thrust with the propeller's rotation and the angle at which the blades strike the air, control the aircraft's speed during flight, while the engine's speed remains constant even when the aircraft's speed and altitude vary as well as velocity of the air flowing through and across the propeller's blade. The environment in which a propeller operates can be severe--lots of stuff hits it constantly besides air, like sand, stones, hail, salt water, lightening and the odd bird, with outside air temperatures ranging from considerably below zero to going on 160+ F. A prop has to be able to take the stresses put on it--its blades bend, flex and vibrate all over the place and these tremendous steady and dynamic loads and stresses are transmitted directly to the engine and airframe. Tons of pull develops on blades from centrifugal forces with the thrust of its spinning action generating other significant force; blade speeds reach up toward that of sound and any change in the aircraft's speed will alter the angle of air flow across those blades which will in turn cause imbalance and magnification of these dynamic forces. So structurally speaking the blades must up to snuff, thick and strong and resilient to cope with these stresses and loads. But they also have to be thin enough to achieve the best efficiency in terms of thrust while light enough to minimize the propeller's weight (and I suppose especially so with the "Zero" because that plane's engine wasn't so beefy, its airframe not so rugged) and so the propeller must be carefully integrated with that engine/airframe structural combination so that these ever-changing aerodynamic loads and mechanics are transmitted with the least amount of dynamic issues.

What I'm trying to get at is I'm not exactly sure what "problems" the "Zero" had at various altitudes but at least one pilot's account says the performance dropped quite a bit due to the inferior propeller designs installed--and he wasn't happy about it! Assuming the P-39 used the same propeller design then I do not deny the possibility that this plane, too, might have run into its own dynamic issues with regard to that propeller--though we know from pilots who flew the Aircobra that it behaved more or less in a "high-performance" kind of way all the way up to 15,000 feet. Above that altitude I don't really know, but whatever propeller issues the P-39 might have experienced at altitudes greater than 15K these would have tended to be unique to that plane's engine/airframe structural combination as this reacted to the various propeller dynamics in play and are in no way necessarily the same to what has been reported with respect to the "Zero."

All of which assumes the same props were employed, and we don't even know that for sure.
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

Post by mogami »

Hi, Many USA aircraft used the Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller including the Brewster Buffalo. The P-38 series up to E used them but the later models changed to the Curtiss Electric duraluminum prop. I think if the Japanese had a problem and knew they had a problem they certainly had plenty of Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller's to look at.

The P-39 used it in at least the F model. I think F4F's also used it.


bauxite was one of the resources Japan aquired from conquest in NEI.

I think once all the data is complied on all aspects of flight performance and material this forum is going to contain many intolerable WW2 aircraft experts.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Daniel Oskar
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2000 10:00 am

Post by Daniel Oskar »

There were 2 propellers used on the Zeros at this time. The A6M2 is documented to have used a variable pitch (25° to 45°) 140-kilogram Hamilton-Sumitomo 3-blade CS-40B propeller with a 2.9-meter diameter. The A6M3's 145.3-kilogram Hamilton-Sumitomo 3-blade propeller pitch varied from 29° to 49° and had a diameter of 3.05 meters.

from: http://members.aol.com/reishikiseng...o_details_2.htm

I think the numbers on these props may be bogus. A constand speed prop for and aircraft with ~1000hp should have a wider pitch range. It should also be full feathering, with max pitch close to 90°. If the engine failed and the best you could do was 45/49° your glide ratio would suck.
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

Mogami wrote:Hi, Many USA aircraft used the Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller including the Brewster Buffalo. The P-38 series up to E used them but the later models changed to the Curtiss Electric duraluminum prop. I think if the Japanese had a problem and knew they had a problem they certainly had plenty of Hamilton Standard Hydromatic propeller's to look at.

The P-39 used it in at least the F model. I think F4F's also used it.


bauxite was one of the resources Japan aquired from conquest in NEI.

I think once all the data is complied on all aspects of flight performance and material this forum is going to contain many intolerable WW2 aircraft experts.
The P-38 was not listed but you may be correct. I don't know but that did surpise me not see the Lightning amongst the others. Could be, though, the earlier models were only rigged with the second-generation constant-speed props from HS.

The only F4F accounted for was the British variant I mentioned, but again, this too could be a simple error of omission.

It's frustrating trying to find and then intelligently collate this kind of information. It's not as if there were a military-data supermarket out there to do our shopping in. :)
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

Corsair

Post by mogami »

Hi, The Corsair used the Hydromatic propeller as well.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

Daniel Oskar wrote:I think the numbers on these props may be bogus. A constand speed prop for and aircraft with ~1000hp should have a wider pitch range. It should also be full feathering, with max pitch close to 90°. If the engine failed and the best you could do was 45/49° your glide ratio would suck.

As far as I know the Japanese had nothing that feathered per se. As for the pitch ranges you might well be right, which could also explain why that "zero" pilot wasn't awful impressed with his plane's performance at certain altitudes.

Any way you could call around to an old desk sergeant pal of yours tucked away somewhere and get a line on the test results from that "Zero" the government carted off to San Diego?
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

Mogami wrote:Hi, The Corsair used the Hydromatic propeller as well.

That's already listed! :)
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

TheElf wrote:I was certain this would be "Auto-censored" :o . Sorry TJ
That's fine. As it turns out I can take it. :)
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

The Zero

Post by mogami »

Hi, What the Zero was made out of. an aluminum alloy - Extra Super Duralumin - recently pioneered by the Sumitomo Metals Company. Rich in zinc and chrome it had a 40% higher UTS and an 80% higher YS then contemporary alloys.
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Tristanjohn
Posts: 3027
Joined: Wed May 01, 2002 4:50 am
Location: Daly City CA USA
Contact:

Post by Tristanjohn »

Mogami wrote:Hi, What the Zero was made out of. an aluminum alloy - Extra Super Duralumin - recently pioneered by the Sumitomo Metals Company. Rich in zinc and chrome it had a 40% higher UTS and an 80% higher YS then contemporary alloys.
I'd have to unearth a copy of that book (I don't own one) but as I recall Horikoshi had a number for it, Mogami. Maybe someone else around here has that text at home and can quote the pertinent passage verbatim.
Regarding Frank Jack Fletcher: They should have named an oiler after him instead. -- Irrelevant
User avatar
mogami
Posts: 11053
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 8:00 am
Location: You can't get here from there

Why Japan went to war

Post by mogami »

East Timor gold, petroleum, natural gas, manganese, marble
Brunei petroleum, natural gas, timber
Burma petroleum, timber, tin, antimony, zinc, copper, tungsten, lead, coal, some marble, limestone, precious stones, natural gas, hydropower potential
Indonesia petroleum, tin, natural gas, nickel, timber, bauxite, copper, fertile soils, coal, gold, silver
Vietnam phosphates, coal, manganese, bauxite, chromate, offshore oil and gas deposits, forests, hydropower potential
Laos timber, hydropower, gypsum, tin, gold, gemstones
Philippines timber, petroleum, nickel, cobalt, silver, gold, salt, copper
Cambodia timber, gemstones, some iron ore, manganese, phosphates, hydropower potential
Malaysia tin, petroleum, timber, copper, iron ore, natural gas, bauxite
Thailand tin, rubber, natural gas, tungsten, tantalum, timber, lead, fish, gypsum, lignite, fluorite, arable land
Hong Kong feldspar
Taiwan small deposits of coal, natural gas, limestone, marble, and asbestos

Coming soon, Java and Sumatra
Image




I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!
User avatar
Apollo11
Posts: 25194
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 8:00 am
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Contact:

Ressurection of old (and unanswered) thread...

Post by Apollo11 »

Hi all,

Still no comment of my quick and dirty calculations regarding thousands of
"missing" / "unaccounted for" F6F using data from PDF statistics document
"TristanJohn" posted in 1st message of this thread?

BTW, I originally calculated that there are 9000 "missing" / "unaccounted for"
F6F but this can be rounded down to 8000 since I found out that 930 were
supplied to UK via Lend-Lease agreement.

Again, any ideas why this huge (now 8000) discrepancy from official numbers
posted in PDF and actual production and Lend-Lease?


Leo "Apollo11"
Image

Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE
grumbler
Posts: 214
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 10:00 am
Location: Falls Church VA USA

RE: Ressurection of old (and unanswered) thread...

Post by grumbler »

There were some 4500 F6F-3s that were replaced by F6F-5s, so that might be part of your discrepancy. Thus there were not "almost 10000
fully operation F6F aircraft in squadrons" but rather two batches, one of -3s and one of -5s.

I still don't see why there would have been a need for a production run of 12,000+ aircraft when there were only squadron slots for a thousand or so, but maybe there was operational requirements we are not seeing.
User avatar
eMonticello
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:35 am

RE: Ressurection of old (and unanswered) thread...

Post by eMonticello »

The answer to all your questions. Instead of "follow the money", I say "follow the serial numbers".

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/navyserials.html

Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Pudd'nhead Wilson
User avatar
dtravel
Posts: 4533
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2004 6:34 pm

RE: _HUGE_ discrepancy in numbers...

Post by dtravel »

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Therefore can we assume that by the end of the war there were almost 10000
fully operation F6F aircraft in squadrons.

That is your error (I'll bet). You are assuming that every single aircraft was always in an active frontline squadron. None used for training, none stored for use as replacements, none sitting at the factories or enroute from the production centers to the HQs, none down for repairs and replaced when the unit was transferred, etc.
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

Image
User avatar
Lemurs!
Posts: 788
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:27 pm

RE: _HUGE_ discrepancy in numbers...

Post by Lemurs! »

Most aircraft in heavy use also wore out in 3-6 months as well.
Image
User avatar
denisonh
Posts: 2080
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Upstate SC

RE: _HUGE_ discrepancy in numbers...

Post by denisonh »

Quite right. Many aircraft, once considered "battle weary", were removed from frontline service.

They werte used as "hacks" for rear echelons, salvaged for parts, and so on.

Not sure that these would be considered "operational losses" and represent a large proportion of Allied aircraft later in the war.
ORIGINAL: Lemurs!

Most aircraft in heavy use also wore out in 3-6 months as well.
Image
"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC
User avatar
ClaudeJ
Posts: 754
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:38 pm
Location: Bastogne

RE: Buffalo I vs A6M2

Post by ClaudeJ »

Intersiting! Did you etsted other Buffalo version?
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-3770 CPU @ 3.40GHz, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 4 Go, Windows 10 64bits, 32 GB RAM, Regional settings = French, Belgium
(Previously known as JanMasters0n)
Post Reply

Return to “War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945”