Stacking!

Korsun Pocket is a the second game using the award winning SSG Decisive Battles game engine. Korsun Pocket recreates the desperate German attempt to escape encirclement on the Russian Front early in 1944. The battle is a tense and exciting struggle, with neither side having a decisive advantage, as the Russians struggle to form the pocket, then try to resist successive German rescue efforts and last ditch attempts at breakout.
Post Reply
User avatar
coralsaw
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:00 am
Location: Zürich, CH

Stacking!

Post by coralsaw »

Hello!

Love the game so far, I'm sure it's going to be a great series. Here's my major quibble with the system though, FWIW.

The scale of the map is 3KM per hex, yet I'm able to stack 4 regiments in one hex. This is one huge density, which most likely is not historical. I do understand that in reality there would be at least 1 regiment in reserve, but still the density seems awfully high. Am I off here?

Especially for those people that are interested in organisational aspects of WW2 warfare and in playing realistically in general, I would very much also prefer if both the AI and the player could optionally disallow stacking units from different divisions, since this was not common practice by far. An exception would be independent Tank brigades, AT support units etc. Could this be done in a patch or taken into consideration for the next game in the series?

I'd appreciate a comment from the designers, if at all possible. I'd love to see the system improved and I believe my suggestion would qualify as such. :)

/coralsaw
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte, 15 July 1815, to the captain of HMS Bellerophon.
Theopolis
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:33 am

Post by Theopolis »

From what I read by you in the locking thread, it would certainly up the realism. If this were to be implemented, the game would really need a facility to highlight the entire group the same way it does divisions. One troubling aspect of it is the combat system. It is difficult enough to get good odds in many attacks as it is. Restricting which units can participate in a particular combat may not work well with the current combat system. It also may scare off some of the more casual players, as you have already noted in the other thread. Still a good idea, though. Maybe it could be optional.
Wallenstein
Posts: 91
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 11:41 pm
Location: Austria

Post by Wallenstein »

While I understand your point of view, I too think that such modifications would add too much complexity into the game. And one of the reasons I like TAO/KP is the simplicity of the rules and the game speed without becoming "shallow".
And let me put this in consideration: One turn equals 12 hours. During that time period, I do see the possibility for more than one division to move/attack in a nine square kilometer hex.
User avatar
Gregor_SSG
Posts: 681
Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2003 9:22 am
Contact:

Post by Gregor_SSG »

coralsaw wrote:Hello!

Love the game so far, I'm sure it's going to be a great series. Here's my major quibble with the system though, FWIW.

The scale of the map is 3KM per hex, yet I'm able to stack 4 regiments in one hex. This is one huge density, which most likely is not historical. I do understand that in reality there would be at least 1 regiment in reserve, but still the density seems awfully high. Am I off here?

Especially for those people that are interested in organisational aspects of WW2 warfare and in playing realistically in general, I would very much also prefer if both the AI and the player could optionally disallow stacking units from different divisions, since this was not common practice by far. An exception would be independent Tank brigades, AT support units etc. Could this be done in a patch or taken into consideration for the next game in the series?

I'd appreciate a comment from the designers, if at all possible. I'd love to see the system improved and I believe my suggestion would qualify as such. :)

/coralsaw
There are a number of fundamental questions in this, and your other thread, but I'll try to address them all.

Firstly, the AI. It has its hands full at the moment more or less coping with divisional integrity requirements. If you stop units from different divisions from stacking, or tie artillery units to specific formations, then it won't cope. It's the sort of thing that doesn't seem so hard at the start of a battle, but which can go to pieces after only a few turns, especially against sneaky human players.

Part of the problem is that we have been playing hex based games so long that we see and think in discrete hex based elements. Where we see a unit in a hex, we should instead think that the most important part of that unit was somewhere in the vicinity of a piece of ground that is represented in abstract by the hex.

As for the human players, we could impose any restriction that we wished. Displaying it intelligently though, is another matter. At the moment, if you select a unit its immediately clear where you can move to (and this is one of the real strengths of our interface). If you can't get somewhere it's because you don't have the MPs.

Now you would have differentiate between hexes you can get to, and those that you can reach, but aren't allowed to, and then those that you can't reach at all. All of a sudden, the simplicity is gone.

As it stands, divisional integrity is a powerful incentive to keep the regiments of a division in close contact. In the next game, divisional integrity will be variable by formation, so tactically poor units, like Russian Infantry divisions, will have stay very close to get the bonus.

This feature caused a lot of intra-company argument, and was only agreed to after we came up with a way to display divisional integrity on the map.

Gregor
Vice President, Strategic Studies Group
See http://www.ssg.com.au and http://www.ssg.com.au/forums/
for info and free scenarios.
User avatar
j campbell
Posts: 148
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2001 10:00 am
Location: Grosse Pointe, MI

Post by j campbell »

Actually, the regimental density for a 9 sq kilometer area is not too high. I looked over some of the situational maps during the Citadel Operation (see "Kursk" by David Glantz) and often the Germans were deployed more than 1 division in a similar sized area. Definitely the Russian concentrations exceeded even 4 regiments to the same area. If the units were deployed in a city i think u could go even higher than this. Considering that you can pak 100,000+ in a football stadium this number doesn't seem unreasonable.
Most likely these concentrations were not seen on the western front.

john
"the willow branch but bends beneath the snow"
User avatar
coralsaw
Posts: 267
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:00 am
Location: Zürich, CH

Post by coralsaw »

Gregor,

Thanks for the information, indeed I see the problems you mention, as well as the point about making the game too inaccessible. Needless to say your designers have done a fine job overall, if the optionality of the stacking limitations could find itself in a wishlist for the continuation of the series it would be just great. :)

John, thanks for the info too. I guess I haven't done my homework on Kursk, my rule of thumb from memory for front line density environment has been 1 Bn / km. Using a 2-up formation, this would mean about half the density of the current system. I don't doubt though that at swherpunkt that historical density could well be similar to the current system density.

Regards

/coralsaw
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte, 15 July 1815, to the captain of HMS Bellerophon.
Ozie
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:05 pm
Location: Finland

Post by Ozie »

Coralsaw

The unit density in a hex doesnt mean same as unit density in frontline. Some units are in reserve in that area. And as a turn is 12 hours there is ample time for those units to move within the hex to change the attacker or counterattack within the hex.

I think unit density as it is now just fine. In some situations it has been historically higher than this. For example some retreat situations when unit are involuntarily massed together. And as the 4/hex is absolute maximum right now I think it is ok.
User avatar
Rob Gjessing
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:09 am
Location: Sydney Australia
Contact:

Post by Rob Gjessing »

Just to note, that the hex stacking limitations is a setting in the editor. So in theory you can change this setting via the editor. Of course any changes you make in the editor to existing scenarios/battles may mean that you need to make adjustments to other settings too (like the CRTs' - they may not be appropriate if you reduce the stacking limitations).. but you can do it.

I know I have played around with reducing the stacking in some scenarios I am making. There is one scenario I am working on where the hex scale is about 250 metres -so clearly the stacking will be reduced for that one..
Isn't that bizarre?
Post Reply

Return to “Decisive Battles: Korsun Pocket”