strange liberations

[wobbleguts]

Hi,

Playing as CW. A few script changes chosen - no Africa corp, no nukes, soft build, no oil embargo on Japan, no end date etc.

All was going well until July 1945. The Axis were beginning to lose big time, but they were still strong. I tried to keep this game more or less historically accurate, but I did invade Turkey a bit. Anyway I was battling Turks/Italians/Germans in Turkey when I got a message that Greece/Yugoslavia and Croatia had been liberated by the allies.

There were NO allied units in any of these countries, but Axis units were still present. How did they get liberated? The screenshot shows my move after this magical liberation message (I moved some CW units to Greece).
As you can see there are still Axis units in these countries, no allied (except for Greece), but they are are liberated. Can someone explain?

Well I can't upload that screenshot. Matrix says the file is too large. How can a screenshot be too large? I give up.

[EarlyDoors]

you can use an online resizer such as https://picresize.com/#

make sure its less than 200kb and save it as .jpg

[Hubert Cater]

Hi wobbleguts,

Thanks for the report and if it is easier in this case, please send the screenshot to support@furysoftware.com.

Another option is to use https://imgbb.com/ to upload and share images in forums.

Hubert

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi wobbleguts,

Thanks for the report and if it is easier in this case, please send the screenshot to support@furysoftware.com.

Hubert

Thanks Hubert,

I've sent the screenshot as requested. Remember, the allied units in Greece were sent there after the liberation message...

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks and received, just curious, you wouldn't also happen to have a saved turn from before the liberation messages as well?

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks and received, just curious, you wouldn't also happen to have a saved turn from before the liberation messages as well?

Unfortunately not, but I do have the save game for the next turn if that's any help (probably not). Here it is. Boy these forums are backward. They won't accept a a screenshot and the last time I tried to upload a saved game they wouldn't accept that either.

Tried zipping and uploading this saved game and...can't do it. Wow. Zip files are not supported.

Sent it by email. Thanks for investigating Hubert.

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks for the information and the screenshot, this was very helpful. What it looks like happened here is that Italy was the 'occupier' for both Yugoslavia and Greece. Then when they surrendered/withdrew from the war, via Operation Axis where Germany takes over Italy, this results in the territories that Italy had previously occupied as becoming 'liberated' as Italy is no longer active. Thus the liberation messages you noticed in game.

Hope this helps and for anyone else that ever encounters a similar situation,
Hubert

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Thanks for the information and the screenshot, this was very helpful. What it looks like happened here is that Italy was the 'occupier' for both Yugoslavia and Greece. Then when they surrendered/withdrew from the war, via Operation Axis where Germany takes over Italy, this results in the territories that Italy had previously occupied as becoming 'liberated' as Italy is no longer active. Thus the liberation messages you noticed in game.

Hope this helps and for anyone else that ever encounters a similar situation,
Hubert

Thanks Hubert, that makes sense (and is historically correct). In my current game however it is a little unrealistic because the Germans had enough units in these countries to stop it happening or quickly retake control. Still, if they are too dumb to do that it isn't my problem. Stupid Germans. They will pay the price.

[georgiabulldog1]

I had this very thing happen in my last match. The Americans were about to launch a Torch-style invasion in '42 but capitalized on an undefended Genoa (oops!), cut off Rome from reinforcement, and knocked Italy out of the war with the DAK sitting at the gates of Cairo. Then BAM, Yugoslavia and Greece were 'liberated'. With the Italian garrisons gone the allies quickly occupied the ports that were vacated and in a couple of turns cut off the DAK entirely.

The outcome of that match made for interesting possible alt-history. No American troops ever went to England, they all went straight to the Med. No cross-channel invasion occurred, and Paris didn't fall until early '45. When Germany surrendered, the W. Allies had liberated Bavaria, Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia Greece and Bulgaria, Italy and France. Downside for the West was the Russians ended the game on the banks of the Rhine.

[wobbleguts]

ORIGINAL: georgiabulldog1

I had this very thing happen in my last match. The Americans were about to launch a Torch-style invasion in '42 but capitalized on an undefended Genoa (oops!), cut off Rome from reinforcement, and knocked Italy out of the war with the DAK sitting at the gates of Cairo. Then BAM, Yugoslavia and Greece were 'liberated'. With the Italian garrisons gone the allies quickly occupied the ports that were vacated and in a couple of turns cut off the DAK entirely.

The outcome of that match made for interesting possible alt-history. No American troops ever went to England, they all went straight to the Med. No cross-channel invasion occurred, and Paris didn't fall until early '45. When Germany surrendered, the W. Allies had liberated Bavaria, Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia Greece and Bulgaria, Italy and France. Downside for the West was the Russians ended the game on the banks of the Rhine.

I love possible/probable alternate histories. Stalingrad was dumb, Kursk was too late etc etc

[Cpuncher]

I'm wondering under what exact conditions that Italy will capitulate/switch sides (I couldn't locate the script for this)? In one of my games I had plenty of Italian/German units well dug in several layers of defense in front of Rome, only to have Italy suddenly collapsed at the end of my turn, with no major loss or events going on during that turn. Italian NM was low at the time, but nowhere near zero, with most of Italian ground forces still intact, while her navy was mostly gone. I was shuffling some units around and some ports north Italy was garrisoned by Italian units. Now those ports are all switched to Allied fully intact, so my opponent immediately shipped in a dozen US and British units and cut off all my Germans around Rome...you can imaging what a disaster that was.

I wonder if the Italy event can be made to happen at the end of the Allied turn or beginning of Axis', so Germany can respond to it properly. Historically I think it was the Germans who responded to it quickly before the Allied could take advantage of it.

[BillRunacre]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

I'm wondering under what exact conditions that Italy will capitulate/switch sides (I couldn't locate the script for this)?

If you search the Strategy Guide for Operation Axis it explains when this can happen.

It has to be set before Italy's National Morale falls too low, and even with its setting of 20% it doesn't always happen if the Allies take multiple NM objectives in a single turn.

[georgiabulldog1]

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

I wonder if the Italy event can be made to happen at the end of the Allied turn or beginning of Axis', so Germany can respond to it properly. Historically I think it was the Germans who responded to it quickly before the Allied could take advantage of it.

This situation is similar to a discussion a couple of weeks ago re timing of events, when the Flying Tigers appear in China at half strength at the end of the Allied turn only to be immediately wiped out by the Japanese before the allied player can switch them off auto-intercept!

[Cpuncher]

Thanks Bill for the info.

I had 3 German units right next to Rome at the time, and 3 air units in north Italy. But Italy didn't surrender to Germany according to Operation Axis, rather surrendered or switched to Allies. In previous Allies turn he took Naples and killed an Italian BB, which caused a significant drop in Italy NM, but not to 0. Italy still had maybe 7% NM left, and during Axis turn, no NM event happened. I'm wondering should Italy surrender to Allies, shouldn't it happen after the Allied turn, like all other nations when they surrender, it's always at the end of the other side's turn? It happening at the end of the Axis turn allowed Allies to do whatever they wanted with all the Italian units disappeared. Also DE 621 didn't happen though I had Bologna for many turns later.

BTW, this was a 43 RTV campaign I played.

[BillRunacre]

Hi

I'm just trying to clarify here for a better understanding, and want to check that the US did receive plunder for Italy surrendering to the Allies? This can be checked in the Reports.

If Italy still had some capitals then such a surrender must be due to Italy's NM having fallen to zero at the end of the turn, as there's no other mechanism in place to do that.

[Cpuncher]

Sorry I didn't check if US received plunder. It's a PBEM game that was finished a while ago. In fact Italy didn't surrender to the Allies as my opponent soon began to build Italian units. So maybe Italy did surrender to Germany per Operation Axis, but got liberated immediately on the Allied turn. I probably just didn't read the messages carefully enough. That can explain it. Though I still don't know how the port of La Spezia became Allied at strength 12. Don't remember if my opponent captured it with an Amphibious or not.

Here is a screen shot of the situation right before Italy surrendered.

[Cpuncher]

And the turn right after.



Thanks Bill. I think I understand what happened now. Is there scorched earth when Allies capture Italian resources? Still wondering why the port is 12 if it was captured.

I still think it will be helpful if Operation Axis can happen at the beginning of Axis turn so Germany can make proper adjustments of troop deployment, otherwise it will be a costly lesson for whoever encountering it for the first time.

[BillRunacre]

Was the port captured by the Allies, or did it remain Allied after Italy surrendered, i.e. German troops didn't manage to get their hands on it before the Allied forces landed in northern Italy?

As to when it should happen, I don't know, because if Italy were always to surrender at the start of the Axis turn then it makes things a bit easier for Germany. Really their ally leaving the war should be something that, if Germany hasn't prepared for it (and there is a warning Pop Up) they should suffer from it?

[Cpuncher]

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

Was the port captured by the Allies, or did it remain Allied after Italy surrendered, i.e. German troops didn't manage to get their hands on it before the Allied forces landed in northern Italy?

As to when it should happen, I don't know, because if Italy were always to surrender at the start of the Axis turn then it makes things a bit easier for Germany. Really their ally leaving the war should be something that, if Germany hasn't prepared for it (and there is a warning Pop Up) they should suffer from it?

I'm not sure which way it was, but most likely the port was captured by the Allies with an amphibious landing.

My thought would be that Germany should be given the first opportunity to respond to it, instead of the Allies. Not knowing exactly when Italy will surrender, it's hard for Germany to station a large amount of troops in Italy, with Russia and Western Europe all demanding units, while there are still a lot of Italian units available. Unless the warning is given at the exact turn when it would happen.

[BillRunacre]

The warning should happen some turns before it happens, but this will vary from game to game as it all depends on how quickly Italy's National Morale falls.

Operation Axis is also mentioned in the Strategy Guide, so players can plan ahead - providing they have the troops and MPPs available to do so of course.