WITE WITW integration

[barrykimmerly]

I just know that lots of you out there really want there to be a, "War in Europe", to eventually evolve from this game system. I also believe that this is exactly the intention. In aid of this I have a suggestion for a discussion:

How about a new executable program that is, in essence, a saved game editor. Let me explain. A couple years ago I suggested that WITE and WITW could maybe somehow reconcile their save games so that you could play both at the same time. An interesting discussion ensued and it was stated that this was considered but rejected because it would be too complicated, (I am paraphrasing). My, "New", suggestion for discussion is to develop a whole new executable program that had as it's only function to edit the save game files of WITE and WITW so that you could influence one from the other.

Let me be more specific. Instead of trying to modify both WITE and WITW so that they are combined at some level; how about just reading the units sent to the east from WITW and units sent west from WITE and incorporate that in the reinforcement schedule. The same could be done for control of hexes. I am quite sure it is way more complicated than just that... but could this be done with reasonable effort? I am asking...

This proposed program would not need to resolve anything, (Combat or otherwise), just have a minimal UI, (Map would be nice but not necessary), and have the ability to edit the save game files of WITE and WITW to allow an enterprising player to play both games at the same time.

Very interested in this discussion

[Michael7619]

I am also waiting and hoping for `War In Europe`. Hopefully the next game in this series would be that. I dont think that they will connect WITW and WITE2 as it would be probably too complicated.

I played WITE, but skipped WITW becouse western front is not as interesting to me alone without east front. War in europe would be dreams come true for my kind of strategy games player.

I have preordered WITE2 and i expect hundreds of hours of fun with that.

[kahta]

It wouldn't necessarily be a computer program. It could be done in Excel with some of the more advanced data management features. Its really an issue of converting data from one program to another.

The underlying issue would be the complexity of doing the following steps for every turn:

1) Save WITE2 Game.
2) Convert WITE2 Game to Scenario for scenario editor.
3) Open scenario editor.
4) Export CSV Files
5) Use (yet to be developed) Excel tables to convert WITE2 data to WiTW. The data is not all the same between the two games and is unique to each. It can be converted, but a lot of research would need to go into each.
6) Export converted CSV files from Excel.
7) Open WiTW editor
8) Load converted CSV files into WiTW.
9) Save as scenario.
10) Play turn in WiTW. Let AI go. Then save the game.
11) Convert WiTW savegame to scenario
12) Open scenario in WiTW editor.
13) Export CSV files.
14) Use Excel tables to convert WiTW CSV files into necessary format for WiTE2.
15) Export CSV files Excel tables.
16) Open WITE2 editor, load new CSV files.
17) Load game and let the Soviet AI play.
18) Play next turn.
19) Repeat starting from step 1.

There are a lot of complexities- just imagine trying to align the types of equipment for a Static Infantry division moved from the Soviet garrison to Western Europe. Now multiply that complexity across every unit, ground element, and aircraft that might be moved between theatres... Or importing factory damage from WiTW to WITE2..Not to mention the issue of anything else that is tracked and part of the game that are not part of the CSV files.

That's not to say that it isn't possible. It's entirely possible, but would be extremely complex.

[barrykimmerly]

Thank you kahta

I totally agree with your statement about the complexity of reconciling all the unit data. I have another way of looking at this issue that may be helpful though. Both WITE 2 and WITW basically track the entire German army and air force to make their Theater Boxes work, and it MAY not be necessary to reconcile all of this. What if... Just use the best OB, (WITE 2 very likely), and copy the contents of ALL the units from that to WITW every turn. I am sure it is not that simple; but this approach MAY just drastically reduce the complexity of this approach.

Another approach: Use the best OB, (WITE 2 presumably), and copy that to the, "Integration software", for use as a, "Master", OB. It would then be, (Presumably), possible to just copy the, "Master", OB to both WITE 2 AND WITW every turn.

I do not think any of this would be possible, well not really feasible at any rate, without the blessing and help of the developer. I would be very interested to hear Eric or Joel weigh in on this concept. To be clear- I am only talking about integration of the two games. NOT the whole war. This would just, essentially, add west front integration to WITE 2.

I would pay for a program, (Or DLC, or whatever), that would accomplish this. Imagine... WITE 2 turning to a full map game to play out the final stages of both fronts from 43 to the end... Yes- I would pay for that

[Simon Edmonds]

I like the ideas. The size of it doesn't phase me. Playability would be problematic. The two games would need to be played separately with an interlinked reinforcement and withdrawal file as was mentioned. 43 is too late. It would need to start at least in early 1942 when both sides still had a chance.

[barrykimmerly]

Simon: I see this starting on 22nd June 1941. The idea is to include the western front when it becomes active and is covered by the WITW game. I think this whole approach would only ever be a stopgap measure until there is more of the war covered by the developer.

Maybe I am out in left field... but it seems reasonable to me that something like this could be done with a reasonable amount of effort. WITE 2, (Keeping in mind that WITW exists), seems to be 90% already there.

... I can dream

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: barrykimmerly

... but it seems reasonable to me that something like this could be done with a reasonable amount of effort. WITE 2, (Keeping in mind that WITW exists), seems to be 90% already there.

... I can dream

few bits to bear in mind:

a) The WiTW and WiTE2 code split some time back, so while the research for WiTW exists there is no guarentee that playing WiTW with the WiTE2 code will get sensible results

b) there is no naval war model, and that is going to be essential for the 1941-43 period in the west (that is assuming a June 41 start date which is sensible for other reasons)

c) There are key concepts in WiTE2 that are missing from the WiTW data base (mostly but not just around the air war)

d) I think the most plausible means of integration at the moment are to take one of the two late game starts in WITE2 and match them up. So Stal-Berlin to the 1943 GC and Vist-Berlin to the 1945 GC.

Some of this is relatively easy, its possible to use the event editor to freeze sectors and move regions in/out of the Theatre Box system. The word 'relatively' is doing some serious work in that sentence [;)].

You'd need to rework the WiTW OOBs to fit the WiTE2 concepts.

Both games are set up with only 2 force pools etc (multiple nationalities but 2 force pools). That is fine for Axis-Western Allies or Axis-Soviet Union. It clearly is not for Axis-Western Allies-Soviet Union. In turn the game is set up on 2 step game turn. I believe both of these are pretty hard-wired.

That suggests that the WA-SU side have to share air phase, logistic phase and ground phase. Which makes team play very hard to envisage. We have to assume that any such project will have to exclude the AI completely.

its all such an intriguing project, but there are some massive problems on the way. I think the most feasible option would be a 1945 GC where to some extent if the production model goes off the rails it really doesn't matter too much. But that is a lot of work for the pleasure of stomping all over the Axis player [8D]

[barrykimmerly]

Thanks Loki100

Your points are well taken. WITE 2 will be an amazing game I expect, and I will play it almost every day for the next 10 years, just like WITE and to a lesser extent WITW. I think WITW only suffers from being compared to WITE which covers, (In my opinion), the most interesting campaign in wargaming.

I also wish to apologize, (I am Canadian...), for confusing the issue by talking/dreaming about a possible future where this series of games is even more than it is. The original intent of this question was specifically about accepting what WITE/WITW actually are and where the development is now, but somehow making it possible to play both games at the same time and sharing some specific results from the game save files. When I said we were 90% there I was specifically referring to exactly that. I, "Get", that adding WITW to WITE 2 as a single executable game is... not trivial

Perhaps all that is reasonably achievable would be to read the WITE 2 game save files to get which units are transferred between east and west fronts. Even that would be very interesting to play out. (Using both games). Of course this would probably need the campaign scenarios to be modified to some degree so that events on the, "Other", front are handled more or less accurately. For example: If you are doing well on the east front and send quite a few units west, and the games were completely unmodified, then WITW would end suddenly because it would assume the Soviets had taken Berlin.

Interested to get the game and see what may be achievable in the event engine...

I must also say, as a lifetime gamer, that it is a great privilege to have games of this caliber to play. The fact we can even talk about this is a testament to the quality and scope of these games

[loki100]

agree, I've been having fantasies of somehow hooking the WiTW 1943 GC into WiTE2 for the last 5 years.

We've had testers doing unofficial comparisons say by playing the 1945 GC from WiTW (ie the start of the Ardennes Offensive) and then starting on WiTE2 from Jan 1945.

The event system opens up a lot of options, so far its been linear not branching and not included what-ifs. That is mainly due to the need to focus on the core game and even a branching event system is incredibly hard to refine and test (I've done a lot of work with AGEOD in the past and am painfully aware of how easy it is to make a mess of a game this way).

I think the tools are there for some degree of informal interaction but making them work is not going to be easy. One problem is that the event list is fixed each time you start a scenario, so you can't for eg write an event in WiTE2 to cancel an arrival if you decide in WiTW to keep a given Pzr division in Italy.

Roger

[Bulldog61]

So then it looks like next step would be an upgrade of WITW then perhaps the naval war as an extension or DLC

[barrykimmerly]

Bulldog61- I like the idea of some kind of, "Integration", scenario/DLC/addition/expansion for WITW. I would pay for that. I do think that this idea is best approached from WITW for several reasons. Maybe the most important is that I do not want to insinuate in any way that I am not satisfied with WITE 2, (And I have not even played it yet). The Dev team will be busy with patches and updates to that game for a bit, and that is as it should be.

Accomplishments bring about new possibilities though. A DLC for WITW that, "Drove", the WITW East Front theater box from WITE 2 gave save files...? Wish my programing skills were up to that task, (They are not).

[RedLancer]

The big problem with linking the games is the level of detail and balance. One of the big dev challenges is developing an AI good enough to play the game so it can be used to achieve balance. Two AIs working independently to a common goal is a big ask.

My recommendation is parallel scenarios with house rules and don't sweat on the detail. WitW doesn't start until July 43 so the scope for linkage is constrained. I'm already planning a 4OHL WitE2 scenario I can link with a matched WitW one. The good thing with 'what if' scenarios is no one can argue the result.

[ignikharion]

I think 2b3 will expand Wite2 through DLCs (Finland, north Africa, Balkans, Italy, France) until we get a "War in Europe 41-45".

The map is already there. 2by3 "only" has to unlock the diferent theatres adding new features where needed (naval game in the Mediterranean seems a must) I just hope 2by3 unlocks also Spain. Since i am a Spaniard i would love to launch Torch in Cadiz [:D]

I am not a computer programmer but I think this model makes more sense than trying to mix witw and wite. It allows to slowly expand the game while getting the funds to keep working on new content.

[jacktimes2]

A new naval system modeled along the lines of the air war is a dream I've harbored since I started playing WitW. I would absolutely love prosecuting the Battles of The Atlantic and The Mediterranean in a similar manner.