Rail Capacity

[Bamilus]

Actually you can see how it got there. If you hover over supply depot in logistics map mode (N) it tells you where the supply came from and how far away. You can see "bottlenecks" by using logistics map mode (N) at end of your turn and seeing where rail lines are yellow/red which indicates high SMP penalties. Lastly, using F2 (rail movement mode) you can see railyard capacity. So, the answer to everything you asked is actually "yes", not "no". And I use all of these details EVERY TURN to improve my situation.

Also, use the Supply tab in Unit CR and supply tab in Location CR. Look at unused vehicles in Depot's which indicates you have a higher supply priority than needed on a depot. There's also tons of other info on that and also you can look at Supply Details tab from Unit tab to see how much freight it got and if it didnt, why didn't it (not enough freight, not enough trucks, or admin failures).

Last thing I'll say: there is much to be desired in ways of presentation. I think the game for the most part gives you the majority of the info you need to make decisions, but much of it is spread over the place (CR, Logistics Map Mode, Rail Movement Map Mode, Turn Summary, Production Screen, Logistics Event Phase log). But, they've continued to make steps to improve this and it's greatly improved from WITE1 (minus a few things).

However, there's a difference between it being somewhat clunky to get the information versus the information not being there at all, which most of it is.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

And again, the point is that there is no tool that gives you an overview to how much railyard capacity is locally used ....

I keep on pointing you to the other thread as that explains why you can't see this (& actually that is meaningless from your pov). Now clearly that is not the answer you want as I think you want far more agency than the game gives you.

As in the earlier post, you get agency, but its via the HQ (demand) and depot (processing capacity systems).

I've just opened T13 of my HtH game so lets use the Ukraine as an example.

I have one dual track line running Lvov-Vinnitsa, it branches to Kiev and Kremenchug.

I am not moving many combat units so most of my usage is freight.

So exhibit a - rail usage before the split:



as we'd expect, some of that usage then goes to Kiev and the rest moves east, so exhibit b - what moves east



So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).

Now where does the freight come from:



Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.

So I have tools - intermediate depots to catch freight that can't make the journey, a pattern of depots along the rail line, fiddling HQ demand to mean that PG1 remains mobile. What really is irrelevant to my decision making is where the capacity to move the freight comes from?

which leads us to:

ORIGINAL: Karri
..

I can see how much supply my depot got. Can I see how the supply got there? Can I see where the bottleneck was? Is there any information at all available that would help me understand how to improve the situation? The question to all is no. I don't need to control the railyard, but I do need to know what happens.

you can see where it came from, given the even spread of rail usage along the network, there is no particular delivery bottleneck (But I am running up a large SMP penalty). You do have (realistically) a global shortage of rail capacity. If I really wanted/needed to send more into the Ukraine well I need to lower demand further north.

Would I send combat units down that line. Well its not a great idea but at the end of the day, yes I would.

[mikael333]

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

ORIGINAL: mikael333

It shows last turn divided by 6. I understand that usage colors are not scaled accordingly? Or are they? Than I do not understan lokis remark.

You misunderstood him. There's an impact from rail usage that decays over time (the manual mentions it) and that is last turn's usage divided by 6. After that, everything it shows is current turn activity. So yes, it shows SOME of the carryover usage from before, but unless you're railing a ton of guys it's usually minimal. If I rail a Panzer division on a single line, it's going to turn red. Next turn, it will probably be yellow from the decay. But if I rail a unit again it will turn from yellow to red instantly. That's the visual feedback I'm talking about.

Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.

look at the post above, it shows exactly what you asking and addresses the question of can you send units - not surprisingly the answer is ... 'it depends'

[mikael333]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.

look at the post above, it shows exactly what you asking and addresses the question of can you send units - not surprisingly the answer is ... 'it depends'

Ok, so you are saying I have to calculate 3661 times 6 in my head (slightly bigger than 20.000) and then know, that this is already well in the orange with SMP+4. I see, that is some practical advice.
As a "casual" gamer I would prefer to see the orange though.

[speedyglides]

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).

Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, so you are saying I have to calculate 3661 times 6 in my head (slightly bigger than 20.000) and then know, that this is already well in the orange with SMP+4. I see, that is some practical advice.
As a "casual" gamer I would prefer to see the orange though.

I'm not really. If you want to know what it will cost you to move a combat unit then its 1 SMP per hex plus the extra cost of current usage in that hex (see 38.7.7 for this).

Where does this usage come from? Well its the residual usage from last turn (the /6) and whatever you have done this turn. Thus the map display shows what the cost will be to move a unit. If you are trying to keep total usage below a threshold (ie guessing ahead to what the next logistics phase will do),then yes do the calculation you mention. But I've been testing and playing WiTE2 for almost 5 years and have never even thought about doing it that way.

Now there quite simply is no rule for how to interact unit moves with logistical moves. It is so conditional. How important is that unit to you? If it marches will it shed so much in damage/fatigue that it is better to use the rails?

Only you as the player can judge that trade off.

Final bit, there is no cap to rail movement in a hex. In theory it can be limitless, just the SMP cost escalates to the stage where the units/freight don't move very far and you can't move much as you have claimed all the rail cap available.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).

Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?

residual rail usage is the final amount last turn/6. So if my residual usage is 3,600 roughly the total at the end of last turn was around 20k

[speedyglides]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).

Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?

residual rail usage is the final amount last turn/6. So if my residual usage is 3,600 roughly the total at the end of last turn was around 20k

Oook. Cristal clear now. Thanks.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: loki100


Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.

In a 2 day period, 13 450t trains delivered 5319t to kiev, Kiev was operating at 8% of its capacity so what is not enough now can be vastly increased. Historically 70 trains a day was delivered, so Kiev in game is getting 10% or so of historical freight delivered to the East, its freight max capacity is 133 train deliveries, so if maxed out it can supply each day 28 Div to 300 t.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: loki100


Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.

In a 2 day period, 13 450t trains delivered 5319t to kiev, Kiev was operating at 8% of its capacity so what is not enough now can be vastly increased. Historically 70 trains a day was delivered, so Kiev in game is getting 10% or so of historical freight delivered to the East, its freight max capacity is 133 train deliveries, so if maxed out it can supply each day 28 Div to 300 t.

and how is that modelled in the actual game? Did the historical German rail net follow mine?

In-game I could push more trains into the Ukraine but that would be at the cost of trains going to Minsk/Smolensk/Pskov. Did the historical German logistical planners make the same set of priorities that I am following?

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: loki100


Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.

In a 2 day period, 13 450t trains delivered 5319t to kiev, Kiev was operating at 8% of its capacity so what is not enough now can be vastly increased. Historically 70 trains a day was delivered, so Kiev in game is getting 10% or so of historical freight delivered to the East, its freight max capacity is 133 train deliveries, so if maxed out it can supply each day 28 Div to 300 t.

and how is that modelled in the actual game? Did the historical German rail net follow mine?

In-game I could push more trains into the Ukraine but that would be at the cost of trains going to Minsk/Smolensk/Pskov. Did the historical German logistical planners make the same set of priorities that I am following?

I just gave you your game turn in game logistic ability to supply from kiev at 8% and 100% of Kiev at 60000t.

In dont see any way to build more rail lines in game, so dont understand your question about historical rail net.

Your not at the same place and time as where the Germans, due to you playing a game as opposed to German planners bounded by different logistical constraints you are not bound by. Each AG was planned to have 75 train loads of supplies delivered a day in 41.

[carlkay58]

Hanny:

The rail net as Loki referred to is the repaired and functioning rail net. Yes it is bound by the historical rail lines as noted on the map but Loki may not have repaired/converted the same rails as the Axis did historically.

Historically the Axis captured the two major cities in the Dnepr River bend before Kiev fell. Those railyards are completely repaired by the time Kiev fell so they would be able to use their railyards to help the capacity in Kiev in the game. Loki's game does not include those railyards as of yet.

The Germans did plan to have 75 train loads of supplies delivered each day in 41. However they fell extremely short of that goal. AGC reports that they were only receiving 12 to 15 trains per day in September before the rains hit. So less than 20% of what was calculated as needed. As far as I know, the only AG that came close to receiving what it needed was AGN and that was helped immensely by both the Baltic ports and rail system that did not require conversion but just repair. Also all rolling stock in the Baltic States that were captured were able to be used on the rail system while the other AGs encountered the fact that Soviet rolling stock was broad gauge and could not be used once the tracks were converted to European gauge without major revisions.

[MaB1708]

Loki, carlkay and the lot...thank you so much again for your relentless efforts to explain. Great example above, very helpfull!

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Hanny:

The rail net as Loki referred to is the repaired and functioning rail net. Yes it is bound by the historical rail lines as noted on the map but Loki may not have repaired/converted the same rails as the Axis did historically.

Kiev is in reciept of rail freight so he has a functioning rail line, i dont see how he could be asking a question thats impossible to answer, as you suggest he did.

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
Historically the Axis captured the two major cities in the Dnepr River bend before Kiev fell. Those railyards are completely repaired by the time Kiev fell so they would be able to use their railyards to help the capacity in Kiev in the game. Loki's game does not include those railyards as of yet.

How does capacity in those cities increase capacity at kiev?, which game rule are you thinking applies here. In any event he has a double line in working order, his 4 sending locations all arrive in a 48 period over the 7 day logistical period, so there is massive unused line capacity, he achieved 5k, line capacity for double line is maxed out in game at 30000t, so you would need 2 double lines to move 60k in a week to Kiev is that what you mean? having more depots pushing supplies to Kiev, so Kiev can forward on more ina 7 day period and still try and create stocks to fill its own capacity. I think thats what you mean, is that right?.


If so it helps in game, as a single 30000t a double line max capacity is 30000/7/450 so 10 trains in a week, the line is maxed out at 10 trains a week, does that seem low to you?, it did to the Germans, who ran 94 trains a day in late 42, 136 trains a day from Kiev in 43.

German pre invasion capacity.
April 1940 the Reichsbahn started the Otto Program to upgrade the tracks using 30,000 workers and 300,000 tonnes of steel from the Heer allocation. This produced eight trunk lines from north to south: VII Berlin–Danzig–Lublin–Rowne–Kiev: 24 train pairs a day. What we are interested in is Kiev planned 48 trains a day capacity, the SU was running 60 train pairs a day on the same line up to start of war. So winter of 42, was when 24 pairs was achieved.

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
The Germans did plan to have 75 train loads of supplies delivered each day in 41. However they fell extremely short of that goal. AGC reports that they were only receiving 12 to 15 trains per day in September before the rains hit. So less than 20% of what was calculated as needed.

AGC in July 14 trains, August 24, Sept drops back to July numbers, Ill do July from Halders diary http://militera.lib.ru/db/0/pdf/halder_eng6.pdf

Halder diary, page 203 6th July AGC requires 21 trains a day. Page 242 Wagner guarantees 14 @6300 tons. Page 246 what that translates into combat loads."To meet all supply requirements we have available: As of 18 July, 14 trains; 22 trains are necessary to catch up with the three Armies into the areas newly occupied".

Ie between 6th and 18th July 14*12=168 promised, 146 delivered.

So 6th AGC requires 21*12 days.
QM promises 14 a day, 14*12=168
QM delivers 146/12= 12 a day, =146.


32,000/24 =1333
AGC 21*12 =252*1333=335916 tons.
QM promises 168*1333=223944 tons
QM delivers=146*1333= 194618 tons.

AGC requires 335916
QM delivers 194618

58% of requirement met.

August, AGC gets double July delverd, in Sept for typhon, supply branch of the OKH warned Brauchitsch, Halder and Bock 'if the intensity of fighting and the operational rythm was to be similar to that of the summer campaign, the supply system would be able to cover a bit over 50% of AGC's needs for a space of time of two weeks. More than that, and the system would collapse and the it would be able to deliver just between 10-20% of the total load of supplies needed'.

ORIGINAL: carlkay58
As far as I know, the only AG that came close to receiving what it needed was AGN and that was helped immensely by both the Baltic ports and rail system that did not require conversion but just repair. Also all rolling stock in the Baltic States that were captured were able to be used on the rail system while the other AGs encountered the fact that Soviet rolling stock was broad gauge and could not be used once the tracks were converted to European gauge without major revisions.

Yes that all helped a lot, what did not help was the Pzr corps getting to Divina 100 miles ahead of its supporting Inf, and running out of POL, it sent back its entire supply lift along with the QMs, and it was ambushed mostly lost, the result was an Inf Army had their trucks taken away to replace them, making it less mobile.

Other things also had an influence, for the first 90 days.
AGN replacement manpower 55000
AGC replacement manpower 161000

At 14 men to a ton, AGN used 3900 tons of rail freight to replace 78% of its losses, AGC 11500 to replace 82%, AGN used 9 trains, AGC used 25. 16 more trains of x w z for AGC from the choice of using AGC for the next major operation from replacements alone.

[loki100]

it would really help if you understood how the game works. You can chuck statistics around as much as you like but it is how those concepts are captured in the game engine that matter.

so just to take

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Hanny:

The rail net as Loki referred to is the repaired and functioning rail net. Yes it is bound by the historical rail lines as noted on the map but Loki may not have repaired/converted the same rails as the Axis did historically.

Kiev is in reciept of rail freight so he has a functioning rail line, i dont see how he could be asking a question thats impossible to answer, as you suggest he did.

what creates the capacity to actually move freight? Railyards of size 2 or more - both those cities match that criteria
and could have easily sent that capacity back to at least Brodny where I have freight sotred

He doesn't suggest it is 'impossible to answer' Carlkay provided you with useful (in-game) context.

Finally my relative depot priorities (ie Kiev vs Kirovgrad) have a huge influence on the relative allocation after my rail lines split

[carlkay58]

Hanny - my numbers for the trains came from Stahel's Kiev 1941 where he used the numbers from AGC staff as to what was received. You are referencing the OKH's version. That could be some of the discrepancy. But the point I was trying to make is that, in game terms, Loki's rail status is nothing like the historical Axis setup which can make a HUGE difference in the game in the amount of freight shipped to a depot.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: loki100

it would really help if you understood how the game works. You can chuck statistics around as much as you like but it is how those concepts are captured in the game engine that matter.

What would help more is if the game used a logistic model closer to historical reality, hence my use of math to show how far it differs. I understand how it works in game just fine.

ORIGINAL: loki100
so just to take

what creates the capacity to actually move freight? Railyards of size 2 or more - both those cities match that criteria
and could have easily sent that capacity back to at least Brodny where I have freight sotred

What creates the freight in the first place?, Berlin and the Ruhr is the origin of 85% of all daily freight, yet that is not to be seen in game. Ability to move freight is dependent on a loco to move the freight cars, where in game can i see where my locos are at any point in time?. note a loco in reality does not require a railroad of size 2 or more to move freight.

ORIGINAL: loki100He doesn't suggest it is 'impossible to answer' Carlkay provided you with useful (in-game) context.

Your confused , you asked an impossible to answer question, not Carlkay.

[/quote]

ORIGINAL: loki100


Finally my relative depot priorities (ie Kiev vs Kirovgrad) have a huge influence on the relative allocation after my rail lines split

As i already pointed out its historically immaterial, all you need is a single double line to achieve vastly more than exist in game, with more nodes, but is material in game.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

Hanny - my numbers for the trains came from Stahel's Kiev 1941 where he used the numbers from AGC staff as to what was received. You are referencing the OKH's version. That could be some of the discrepancy. But the point I was trying to make is that, in game terms, Loki's rail status is nothing like the historical Axis setup which can make a HUGE difference in the game in the amount of freight shipped to a depot.

Yes page 119 i recognised your use of Stahel, i was just adding further historical context. I understood your point and showed you how far the game differs from historical rail supply.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: loki100

it would really help if you understood how the game works. You can chuck statistics around as much as you like but it is how those concepts are captured in the game engine that matter.

What would help more is if the game used a logistic model closer to historical reality, hence my use of math to show how far it differs. I understand how it works in game just fine.
...

you really don't understand how it works in game