Sub question

[AlvaroSousa]

Correct. All 7 hexes around it need to be just water for it not to be attacked.

Subs are very hard to represent in games accurately.

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Correct. All 7 hexes around it need to be just water for it not to be attacked.

Subs are very hard to represent in games accurately.

I think that's the old WPE definition. From incbob and gwgardner there is another type of hex "shallow water" represented by shading on the map in WPP. These hexes serve as boundaries for patrol boats. This makes sense to me that subs would be easier to spot in shallow water. I see the real life application. Shallow water is surrounded by water in all seven hexes from the pics I've included above and by your definition should not be allowed. From the explanations, if the lighter colour blue makes up more than 50% of the hex then subs can be attacked. The slightly darker blue, subs cannot be attacked I'm guessing???

[Gerry58]

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

[ago1000]

ORIGINAL: Gerry58

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

because they can't dive and hide.

[AlvaroSousa]

The lighter colored areas are just for patrol boat ranges and aesthetics. Unless I am getting old and forgot my own rules.

[ago1000]

lol. I'm the older one and more forgetful I'd say I'm simply misunderstanding the interpretation of the rule. This reminds me of the interpretation of the hexes surrounding the land unit from preventing partisans. No insult was intended. The rules are the same as Europe but you didn't need to worry about it because the convoy lanes were in deep water so it didn't arise. I think I'm starting to understand what you mean by all hexes need to be surrounded by water. A hex can show water on all sides (aesthetics) but if it's next to a land hex (ie. incbob's beach hex), then one if it's sides is considered to be a non-ocean hex. Making the sub attackable. I may be slow but my work is poor.[;)]

[jcrohio]

Just ran an experiment on submarines. Started up 1941 scenario in hot seat mode, moved the Japanese carrier fleet at Pearl Harbor out the way, and moved the northern sub group at Pearl Harbor one hex south. So the northern sub group was next to two land hexes. The southern sub group was in a lighter colored hex and adjacent to four other lighter colored hexes.

No matter what I tried I could not attack the southern group except with the land based air on Pearl Harbor. Tried carrier air units and surface units adjacent to it. None would attack it. It was completely surrounded by water hexes even though some were lighter colored.

The northern group was a different story. All surface units could attack it as well as the carrier air units. It was adjacent to partial land hexes.

Earlier in this thread Alvaro alluded to the AI cheating. Maybe that is all that is going on.

Jack

[ago1000]

I did the same and this is what I found. It seems the ocean tile needs to be touching some land , jungle, beach, etc tile independent of what it looks like on the map.(when looking at bottom left of your screen for the type of tile)

Thanks.

A = Attack permissible on sub
L = Land hex (jungle, beach, mountain)

The lines on the edges indicate what side is touching (ie, I used 1 line, 2 lines, 3 lines to differentiate.)

[Gerry58]

ORIGINAL: ago1000

ORIGINAL: Gerry58

ORIGINAL: ago1000

@incbob - Thank you.
So for clarification, any shading light blue, a little darker than the previous blue is considered coastal and subs can be attacked ("shallow water"). The darkest blue ocean hexes are the only deep water hexes and subs cannot be attacked there.

Why subs can be attacked in shallow waters and not in deep waters?

because they can't dive and hide.

I guess this is a game abstraction but they were attacked in deep waters too