The World at War ELO Tournament

[petedalby]

I didn't believe it was possible for a nation to continue if all its capitals were taken. Did USSR really have all its alternates occupied as well as Moscow?

Most definitely. It's happened to me twice now with the USSR. I even posted a query on the first occasion - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4956257

[LoneRunner]

ORIGINAL: The Land

I didn't believe it was possible for a nation to continue if all its capitals were taken. Did USSR really have all its alternates occupied as well as Moscow?

Here's a quote from the manual regarding surrender:

Section 7.5 Surrendering Nations

Every turn after a country loses its Capital (or last Capital if it had more
than one) there will be a check to see if it carries on fighting. The chance
that it will carry on fighting depends on the number of units it has left
within its own borders, as follows:
§§ Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the
home country
§§ Minor Country Surrender = 6% * number of remaining units within the
home country

So, if USSR has 34 units left within the home country, it should not surrender. However, in one game I had over 40 land units and the USSR surrendered anyway after Perm fell. So my guess is that surrender is based on a combination of capitals lost, number of units within the home country, morale, and luck. Be good to know how that works exactly.

[The Land]

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

So, if USSR has 34 units left within the home country, it should not surrender. However, in one game I had over 40 land units and the USSR surrendered anyway after Perm fell. So my guess is that surrender is based on a combination of capitals lost, number of units within the home country, morale, and luck. Be good to know how that works exactly.

If National Morale reaches 0, then they'll surrender. But that's tricky with the 'major' majors as they start with 100k+ NM. Had it happened in that case?

[EarlyDoors]

Game started:

DmitryN (axis) v EarlyDoors (allies)

[petedalby]

New ELO game started:

DavidDailey (Allies) vs petedalby (Axis)

[boudi]

Boudi (Allies) DmitryN (Axis)

DmitryN win.

From my point of vue The tactic of concentrating the Kriegsmarine in the far north where the Royal Navy cannot go to fight is too gamey.

DmitryN played remarkably well. He has exploited a loophole in the game remarkably well. Well done and congratulations.

[rafaelmbaez]

Why the Royal Navy cannot go there to fight ?

Not sure why its "gamey" to fight there?

[boudi]

Why?

Because the passage to the north of the map is too narrow. We are stuck between the edge of the map and Norway. So two submarines can block a whole fleet without taking much damage. The next move Germany sends in its cruisers and battleships and sinks the British destroyers. Then U-Boots attack british CA & BB. Axis naval bombers based in Norway finish the job. 2 turns like that and the Royal Navy is forced to abandon the fight, and the USSR is no longer supplied.

It's Gamey because we can't miss the submarines, and besides, logistically, Germany could never have left its entire fleet in the Great North without a single return to the Baltic Sea. You need fuel, you need supplies, you need repairs. With the game you can leave your ships and submarines for 3 years without moving them.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[rafaelmbaez]

Hummm, I get your point, it happened to me in a Allied game.

I had to cancel the convoys, yes, the USSR is not supplied, but I took a very aggresive stance with UK and US using that MMP so the Axis had to divert resources to counter the Allies ( If I remember correctly, I invaded Portugal and entered Spain through there )

In any case, when the US enters de War, another gamey tactic is just defend Hawaii, and move the whole US fleet to the Atlantic. Combined with the Royal Navy, the German Fleet should be no problem, even in that narrow area.

And because its there, it cannot escape either.

[boudi]

I for one cannot continue to play a game where exploiting a map construction prevents the land-lease from reaching the USSR.

One solution would be to prevent in the game engine the German ships and submarines from going too far north. force them to stay west of Norway.

[firsteds]

I for one cannot continue to play a game where exploiting a map construction prevents the land-lease from reaching the USSR.

Actually it seems to have become a common tactic. Axis subs and navy backed by a maritime bomber in Norway. But there are lots of counters you can try (practice in hotseat):

- turn off the convoy yourself for a few turns, keep the money and lower the NM impact on Russia from raiding
- invade Norway
- smash through with RN (upgrade AA and ASW and send a carrier in fighter mode)
- smash through with RN and US navy
- diplo Finland or Sweden

I don't think it is a map error or an exploit. There are lots of other bottlenecks. Yes, maritime bombers are powerful, but they don't like bad weather or strong AA.

[petedalby]

For every tactic there is a counter. Attack the MBs with your Carrier based fighters. Build MTBs and Support Carriers - both excellent at killing U-boats. Blockade the North Sea from the start of the game to make it hard for the KM to get through.

[rafaelmbaez]

This is another thing... you should be aware when the Kriegsmarine leave Denmark, and make sure to intercept it with the Royal Navy.

UK have a sub that is perfect for it, the Salmon ?

[MrTomnus]

Game ended: EarlyDoors victory!

Axis: MrTomnus
Allies: EarlyDoors

Thanks to EarlyDoors for another great game, you outperformed me in almost every theatre but your masterful defence of the Soviet Union was the tipping point. As the Axis i was too experimental with my strategy(went for full annexation of France, misadventures in Syria with the DAK and building the Graf Zeppelin wasted precious resources and time) and the RNG gods were not in my favour with my diplomatic chits.

Hard lessons learned but a great game against a skilled opponent. Well done!

[Jackmck]

Actually it seems to have become a common tactic. Axis subs and navy backed by a maritime bomber in Norway. But there are lots of counters you can try (practice in hotseat):

- turn off the convoy yourself for a few turns, keep the money and lower the NM impact on Russia from raiding
- invade Norway
- smash through with RN (upgrade AA and ASW and send a carrier in fighter mode)
- smash through with RN and US navy
- diplo Finland or Sweden

I don't think it is a map error or an exploit. There are lots of other bottlenecks. Yes, maritime bombers are powerful, but they don't like bad weather or strong AA.

Best counter is to go offensive- attack Italy/France/Norway
I realize some defensive counters - very important to pass resources to the USSR in 1942. Here are some:
- buy an additional British sub (or two)- they complicate matters for the Axis fleet
- have the US come into the war with ASW/AA/NW level 2; combine them with RN and send them to destroy ships and subs. Buy a few escort carriers
- Build a maritime bomber for the Russians - it's been surprisingly effective.

[Jackmck]

quote:

I didn't believe it was possible for a nation to continue if all its capitals were taken. Did USSR really have all its alternates occupied as well as Moscow?


Most definitely. It's happened to me twice now with the USSR. I even posted a query on the first occasion - https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4956257

On the last turn, Germany also had all of its capitals occupied- actually held only one city (stettin?) but did not surrender yet. Also its NM was still quite high.
Japan's NM falls as the Allies advance- so does Italy quite drastically- but Germany's NM doesn't seem to fall that much ever despite the surrender of Italy, Hungary, etc., and the liberation of France, Netherlands, etc. Seems quite odd.

In our game, i think the USSR should have surrendered, but with the Italy out and Japan in trouble, the Axis probably would have still have lost. I would have liked to see how that played out though. It is frustrating not knowing for sure- or even the parameters of randomness for Major Power surrenders.

[EarlyDoors]

ORIGINAL: MrTomnus

Game ended: EarlyDoors victory!

Axis: MrTomnus
Allies: EarlyDoors

Thanks to EarlyDoors for another great game, you outperformed me in almost every theatre but your masterful defence of the Soviet Union was the tipping point. As the Axis i was too experimental with my strategy(went for full annexation of France, misadventures in Syria with the DAK and building the Graf Zeppelin wasted precious resources and time) and the RNG gods were not in my favour with my diplomatic chits.

Hard lessons learned but a great game against a skilled opponent. Well done!

Thanks Mr Tomnus, I really enjoyed it and thanks for playing on. 1945 must have been tough ~ lots of destruction
The game followed history very closely other than full france and japanese invasion of australia
First time I've seen the atomic bombs too

[DmitryN]

2 New ELO game started:
Wassmuss (Allies) vs DimitryN (Axis)
and
Rudolf Steiner (Allies) vs DimitryN (Axis)

[SchukiSchu]

Hello! I'm completely new to multiplayer but I'd love to play! I have 300 hours of singleplayer experience as Axis and know all the mechanics of the game, which is something, I guess. Anybody here wants to give me my first crushing defeat? I would prefer to play as Axis and I can promise one round per day. I have a question, though: Isn't playing the Allies a lot easier than playing as Axis? You don't seem to take that into account for your point system, or do you? Or maybe I'm completely mistaken and they're equally hard?

[firsteds]

New ELO game started:

Schuki92 (Axis) v firsteds (Allies)

Note that Schuki92 is his official Slitherine user name and comes up on the PBEM screen. He posts here in the Matrix forum as SchukiSchu.