Logistics in the Pacific - USSAmerica (A), Mike (J)

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I'm unable to convert an R&D factory (engine or airframe) to an operational one and vice versa.

I was speaking about Claudia, not Helen. [;)]

Uhm? What do you mean?

That lovely Tunisian . . .

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I'm unable to convert an R&D factory (engine or airframe) to an operational one and vice versa.

I was speaking about Claudia, not Helen. [;)]

Uhm? What do you mean?

Here's an example. When I click on the Ha-35 engine factory, the only conversion options I have are other operational types. Same issue with the R&D factories. Only options are other R&D engines.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I'm unable to convert an R&D factory (engine or airframe) to an operational one and vice versa.

I was speaking about Claudia, not Helen. [;)]

Uhm? What do you mean?

Here's an example. When I click on the Ha-35 engine factory, the only conversion options I have are other operational types. Same issue with the R&D factories. Only options are other R&D engines.

Ahhh I got it now. It's because you play Realistic R&D=on.

As far as I remember (what a shame... I'm playing with it as well....) you can convert R&D to production but not vice-versa. Meaning, that what goes from R&D to production, there remains. You can however convert from one R&D to another indeed.

It doesn't change much in the big picture of things, honestly.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
I'm unable to convert an R&D factory (engine or airframe) to an operational one and vice versa.

I was speaking about Claudia, not Helen. [;)]

Uhm? What do you mean?

Here's an example. When I click on the Ha-35 engine factory, the only conversion options I have are other operational types. Same issue with the R&D factories. Only options are other R&D engines.

I see what you mean. I played with Realistic R & D off in case I made a mistake while learning.

So to me, that actually makes it more important to minimize the number of different engines so I can have a decent stockpile for when the inevitable bombing starts.

[Mike Solli]

Ok, thanks. Got it. I can live with it. The only R&D factories I'm going to accelerate are the Ha-43, Ha-45 and Ha-5 (not for long - until June 42).

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I'm looking for suggestions on (of all things) IJAAF transports. I really like the Helen transport, but that means more Ha-34 engines for the duration of the war. What do you guys think?

Thalia is quite useful for the extra range...Tabby is the best, but of course that is Navy. If you can live with one less range than the Helen and no armor, the Sally is very good with 3k capacity.

I really use Japanese transports, other JFBs not so much. I even send the Theresa to southern Burma for air lift early on.[:)]

[RADM.Yamaguchi]

[/quote]If you can live with one less range than the Helen and no armor, the Sally is very good with 3k capacity.[/quote]

You start out with a Ha-5 factory for the MC-21 Sally. It's more maneuverable, it's 1/3 more durable and has 1/3 more capacity than it's competitors. To me the choice is simple.

[Mike Solli]

Ok, here's my R&D. I have 77 aircraft factories available. I'll list what is getting factories first, and some notes. Then more comments below:

Oscar - 3 - to the III. I can be persuaded to dump this line altogether and just take them as they come. It's mainly for the range. I hate Oscars. Can't keep them alive. All 3 will remain R&D.
Tojo - 6 - to the IIc. I really like the Tojo IIc. It served me very well in the last game. Three will become operational and 3 will remain R&D.
Frank - 12 - to the r. The Frank a was great last game. Can't wait to get the r this game! Three will become operational with the a model and the rest continue to the r model.
Ki-83 - 12 - I've never experienced this model. Can't wait.
Ki-49 - 1 - to the IIa. Why you ask? Get it a little earlier so I can close down the Sally. Factory will remain in R&D. I'll convert the Sally and Lily factories to the Helen.
Patsy - 0 - This will get some of the R&D conversions.
Dinah NF - 3 - It "may" get more R&D factories, but I doubt it.
Ki-115 - 0 -
Sam - 12 - I'm doing this one the right way this time.
George - 12 - to the K5. Three will become operational with the K1 and the remaining 9 will advance through the K2 to the K5.
Shinden - 0 - We'll see if I can swing this one.
Rufe - 4 - This is to get me to the A6M5c. Once I get the Rufe, all 4 will advance to the 5c. Three will remain in R&D and 1 will become operational.
Judy - 3 - to the D4Y4.
Jill - 3 - to the N2.
Grace - 3 - I'd like to give this model a couple more R&D factories over time, but I doubt that will happen.
Myrt NF - 3 -
Toka - 0 -

Zero: I want the A6M3a (range) and A6M5c (armor) models to use. I don't care about the rest. This is primarily for the carriers, with the 3a in a secondary role there. The 5c using drop tanks does a nice job.

My mid war fighters will be the Frank, Tojo (until it's eventually phased out from all the the secondary theaters), George and (rarely) Zero. My goal is to use the IJAAF fighters on the ground as much as possible to preserve the IJNAF pilot pool for the carriers.

My late war fighters will be the Frank, Ki-83, Sam, George and (if I can swing it) Shinden. The only engines needed for them will be the Ha-43 and Ha-45.

I'll use the Helen as the primary IJAAF bomber until Allied air superiority forces me to withdraw them from frontline service. Then they will become ASW platforms.

Night fighters. *Sigh* They all suck. I chose the Dinah and Myrt mainly because of the speed.

I'm not bothering with the Peggy (T). I have no R&D factories to allocate to it and I have plenty of other R&D projects that will need factories down the line. They arrive 9/44 so there won't be any IJAAF torpedo trained pilots until the end of 44. To late, in my opinion, to matter.

I want the D4Y3 as soon as possible. It's worth keeping 2x Ha-60 R&D factories (size 80 & 40) to get the Y1 & Y2 out as early as possible. I'll let the size 80 factory become operational to build up to 500 engines by 2/43. That'll expedite the Y1 & Y2. The Y3 uses the Ha-33. Once I'm working on the Y3, I'll convert the operational Ha-60 engine to something else. Those remaining Ha-60 engines will be used on the Y1 & Y2 models (future kamikazes) along with some recon planes as well.

I'm sure there's more, but let's start with that. Next, engines...

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I'm looking for suggestions on (of all things) IJAAF transports. I really like the Helen transport, but that means more Ha-34 engines for the duration of the war. What do you guys think?

Thalia is quite useful for the extra range...Tabby is the best, but of course that is Navy. If you can live with one less range than the Helen and no armor, the Sally is very good with 3k capacity.

I really use Japanese transports, other JFBs not so much. I even send the Theresa to southern Burma for air lift early on.[:)]

ORIGINAL: RADM.Yamaguchi
You start out with a Ha-5 factory for the MC-21 Sally. It's more maneuverable, it's 1/3 more durable and has 1/3 more capacity than it's competitors. To me the choice is simple.

That's all good info. I'm torn between the (small) range increase and the load capacity. Most of the time, the transports are hauling supply so the capacity is meaningless. But, whenever they are hauling troops/equipment, it is useful. I do like the Sally transport. I'm going to use the 101 Ha-5 engines to build 50 of them (last engine will be for the museum after the war [;)]), but that's a short term solution. I don't want to dedicate an engine factory for a single plane, especially a transport. [8|]

I converted the 4 TR chutai in Manchuoko to the Theresa to train and pulled their better planes into the pools for frontline service.

I am going to build the Ki-57-II for awhile too. It uses the Ha-31 engine, which I use only for the Ki-46-II until it's replaced by the III. There are 245 engines in the pool, so I can build a total of 122 planes (plus the 1 for the museum [:D]). That's also a dead end engine. I'll never build another one. That factory is destined to be converted.

That leaves the Thalia (12-15 range, 2000 load, Ha-35 engine) or the Helen (11-13 range, 3500 load, Ha-34 engine). Only the Ha-35 will be produced throughout the war. I guess that decides it for me. I guess....

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


Oscar - 3 - to the III. I can be persuaded to dump this line altogether and just take them as they come. It's mainly for the range. I hate Oscars. Can't keep them alive. All 3 will remain R&D.

Tojo - 6 - to the IIc. I really like the Tojo IIc. It served me very well in the last game. Three will become operational and 3 will remain R&D.

IMO if there's anything to dump it should be the Tojo, but I've been banging the drum on that enough in this thread.

Oscar is pretty essential as it gives you something in the IJA that has reasonably long legs, which is key for the eastern section of the map where distances are.

Operationally, you need to be quite disciplined in how you use Oscars to get the best from them. I keep them sitting exceptionally low, and with good pilots and their fantastic MVR, they can get good outcomes against substantially better Allied planes. After 1942 they are primarily defensive planes, but they do yeoman like work in the CAP furballs at 1-3k altitude.

George - 12 - to the K5. Three will become operational with the K1 and the remaining 9 will advance through the K2 to the K5.

Is R&D'ing all the way to the K5 with 9 factories worth it? I've felt that the initial benefit of the George comes from the first model, the subsequent two aren't really that much of an improvement compared to the first.

I'd take the first model and move the 9 on to the Shinden. That will do more for the IJNAAF than a slightly better version of the George will.

Zero: I want the A6M3a (range) and A6M5c (armor) models to use. I don't care about the rest. This is primarily for the carriers, with the 3a in a secondary role there. The 5c using drop tanks does a nice job.

What specific advantage are you hoping to get from the extra range of the M3a using them in carriers?

I'm not bothering with the Peggy (T). I have no R&D factories to allocate to it and I have plenty of other R&D projects that will need factories down the line. They arrive 9/44 so there won't be any IJAAF torpedo trained pilots until the end of 44. To late, in my opinion, to matter.

That's a mistake IMO.

You want the Peggy anyways as it's faster and longer legged than the Helen.

The torpedo is a nice bonus, and one that you can take advantage of with appropriate planning.

By 1944 you should be swimming in trained IJA bombing pilots, so assuming a 3 month advance on the Peggy T, you can start training NavT on already trained pilots. This will enable you to get pilots able to conduct torpedo attacks effectively in a comparatively short space of time, and boost this as more Peggy squadrons come online.

The other side of the coin is that in the context of 1944 and 1945, the IJN alone will not be able to sustain the losses of trained torpedo bomber pilots and so any weight the IJA can carry (with their increased training capacity) will give the IJN more resilience. Simply put, there are too many demands for IJN torpedo bomber pilots (carrier squadrons, 1E land-based, 2E land-based) and this will get worse as the war progresses and depending on aiframe choice (e.g you want to use the Grace as a multirole).

Night fighters. *Sigh* They all suck. I chose the Dinah and Myrt mainly because of the speed.

They do all suck.

Dinah seems the most realistic bet for the IJA. The Myrt didn't impress me, I might try the Frances NF going forward in the hopes a more durable airframe will get more mileage.

Some omissions that are key in my mind are:
- IJN recon: The Myrt recon version is a real gem and needs to be brought forward. 29 hex range and radar. Effectively a 4E patrol boat with much less cost that you can run off of carriers. The Judy recon comes early enough that you don't need to R&D that, but the Myrt is a must-have. 29 hexes of naval search is great, 29 hexes of recon is fantastic. For context, you can recon Colombo from Rangoon with that kind of range.

- IJN 2E: Nothing on the P1Y2 Frances seems absolutely insane to my mind. The Y1 model has an SR of 4, so is very hard to use. The more useful Y2 model arrives in 11/44, and it is absolutely essential that it arrives as early in 1944 as it can. The Betty and Nell are simply far to slow (not to mention unarmoured) to be on the frontlines in 1943 and beyond.

- IJA Heavy fighter: I'd like to see the Randy A. If only to supplement the NF squadrons, as you just don't have enough of them to go around.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Soll

That's all good info. I'm torn between the (small) range increase and the load capacity. Most of the time, the transports are hauling supply so the capacity is meaningless.

My transports almost never carry supplies...they are transporting or evacuating troops.[;)] So decision criteria is different.

[Mike Solli]

Now engines. Note that when I list the models that use an engine, it does not mean I'm going to produce it throughout the war.

Operational

Ha-31: Size 45, 245 pool. Factory will stay off and be converted. I'll produce Ki-46-II until the III arrives 1/43. I'll also produce some Ki-57-II.

Ha-32: Size 60, 45 pool. Factory will produce. I won't increase it now, probably will at some point in the future. Models that will use it: B6N2, E15K1, G4M series, H8k series, N1K1 Rex, Ki-21-IIa (until Helen appears).

Ha-33: Size 65, 116 pool. Will increase size to 90 pretty soon. Models: D3A2, D4Y3/4, E13A1, G3M series, H6K series, L3Y2, L2D2, Ki-46-III.

Ha-34: Size 10, pool 3. Will increase it to 90 on 7 Dec 41. Will convert another factory to this engine. Models: Ki-44-IIc, Ki-49-IIa. Not sure when I'll shut this line off.

Ha-35: Size 180, pool 166. Will increase to 210 on 7 Dec 41. Will convert another factory to 30 on 7 Dec 41. Models: A6M series, B5N2, Toka, Ki-43 series, Ki-45 KAIa, Ki-56, Ki-115.

Hitachi (early): Size 40, pool 332. Factory will stay off and be converted. Engines are big paper weights.

Hitachi Amakaze: Size 11, pool 122. Factory will stay off and be converted. Model: E14Y1 - should be enough for the war.

Ha-5: Size 7, pool 101. I used to use it for the Ann, but not this time. I had boatloads of them sitting in the pool and used them in China and for ASW. Model: MC-21. Yep, last engine for the museum. [:D]

Nakajima Kotobuki: Size 25, pool 254. Factory will stay off and be converted. Engines are paper weights.

Nakajima Hikari: No factory, pool 99. Model: B5N1 - will be used on MKB and for training (when needed).

Kawasaki (early): No factory, pool 85. Model Ki-32 Ann. Yeah, it's short range, but I'll use it in China at small airfields and as ASW in choke points.

R&D

Aichi Ha-60: Size 80, 40, 5. Size 5 factory will convert to Ha-43 and increase to 30. The other 2 will accelerate. When it becomes operational, the 80 will become operational and the 40 will convert to either Ha-43 or Ha-45.

Kawasaki Ha-60: Size 20. Will convert to Ha-43 and increase to 30.

Kayaba Argus: Size 5. Will convert to Ha-43 and increase to 30.

Ha-42: Size 2. Will convert to Ha-45 and increase to 30.

Ha-43: Size 10. Will increase to 30.

Ha-44: Size 10. Will convert to Ha-45 and increase to 30.

Ha-45: Size 30. Will remain as is.

NE Turbojet: Size 2. Will convert to Ha-45 and increase to 30.

Toko Rocket: Size 2. Will convert to Ha-45 and increase to 30.

Basically, I'm going to have 4x30 Ha-43 and 5x30 Ha-45 R&D factories. I may adjust which ones convert to which factory based on location. I want to get the Ha-45 out as soon as possible so I can build engines to 500+. I'll convert some of them to Ha-43 and let the remaining become operational.

[Lowpe]

Plane choices:

I rank, imo, the A6M8 as the third best plane to research early. Frank and Sam being the other two.

I rank the Peggy T as incredibly important. Far more important than switching from Sally to Helen.

I strongly disagree that all IJ NFs are poor.

I enjoy using FB and Lilly DB.

[mind_messing]

On engines (and production more generally), I get the impression that you're adopting a "just in time" approach.

I'd discourage this, simply because airframes and engines in the pool are effectively indestructible. Building extra capacity, especially for your key late war airframes, will stand you in good stead when the '44 strategic bombing campaign starts to develop.

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

On engines (and production more generally), I get the impression that you're adopting a "just in time" approach.

I'd discourage this, simply because airframes and engines in the pool are effectively indestructible. Building extra capacity, especially for your key late war airframes, will stand you in good stead when the '44 strategic bombing campaign starts to develop.

I agree with this. That is why I suggest building the aircraft that use a common engine and not a unique one. Excess engines in the pool will not hurt you until the factories can no longer use them.

Meanwhile, see the lady dressed in red . . .

[Lowpe]

On planes and engines there is no correct answer, but what works for you and how you use the planes.

I think overall there are three big questions: will I have enough planes to win the air war in 1942 especially if the Allies fight hard?

Secondly: How do I plan on countering P38/Hellcat/Corsair/Jugs until 1945. Your answer very well could be a refusal to engage and AA.

Finally: Am I prepared to win the night bombing war, should it develop?

A lot of this should work with your plans as Japan: aggressive, defensive, etc. etc. For example, a less than historical expansion with a fairly quiet China might give you many more supplies to be aggressive and be able to afford an aggressive r&d program switch. Conversely, taking portions of India should generate lots of supply which also will allow a more aggressive r&d program.

Or you might opt to expand your naval shipyards and streamline or limit your r&d putting more faith in an accelerated DD & CV program.

I always look to see how back ended the r&d program is...I heavily question allocating factories in Dec of 1941 to something that can't arrive earlier than summer-fall 44. If Japan does well I can recover that r&d easily enough, but if Japan does poorly that means the Home Islands are being bombed early and recovering is much harder to impossible.

Of the possible game changing planes there are very few: Frank, A6M3a, A6M5, A6M8, Sam, Judy and 2nd tier Peggy T, Frances NF, George.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


Oscar - 3 - to the III. I can be persuaded to dump this line altogether and just take them as they come. It's mainly for the range. I hate Oscars. Can't keep them alive. All 3 will remain R&D.

Tojo - 6 - to the IIc. I really like the Tojo IIc. It served me very well in the last game. Three will become operational and 3 will remain R&D.

IMO if there's anything to dump it should be the Tojo, but I've been banging the drum on that enough in this thread.

Oscar is pretty essential as it gives you something in the IJA that has reasonably long legs, which is key for the eastern section of the map where distances are.

Operationally, you need to be quite disciplined in how you use Oscars to get the best from them. I keep them sitting exceptionally low, and with good pilots and their fantastic MVR, they can get good outcomes against substantially better Allied planes. After 1942 they are primarily defensive planes, but they do yeoman like work in the CAP furballs at 1-3k altitude.

George - 12 - to the K5. Three will become operational with the K1 and the remaining 9 will advance through the K2 to the K5.

Is R&D'ing all the way to the K5 with 9 factories worth it? I've felt that the initial benefit of the George comes from the first model, the subsequent two aren't really that much of an improvement compared to the first.

I'd take the first model and move the 9 on to the Shinden. That will do more for the IJNAAF than a slightly better version of the George will.

Zero: I want the A6M3a (range) and A6M5c (armor) models to use. I don't care about the rest. This is primarily for the carriers, with the 3a in a secondary role there. The 5c using drop tanks does a nice job.

What specific advantage are you hoping to get from the extra range of the M3a using them in carriers?

I'm not bothering with the Peggy (T). I have no R&D factories to allocate to it and I have plenty of other R&D projects that will need factories down the line. They arrive 9/44 so there won't be any IJAAF torpedo trained pilots until the end of 44. To late, in my opinion, to matter.

That's a mistake IMO.

You want the Peggy anyways as it's faster and longer legged than the Helen.

The torpedo is a nice bonus, and one that you can take advantage of with appropriate planning.

By 1944 you should be swimming in trained IJA bombing pilots, so assuming a 3 month advance on the Peggy T, you can start training NavT on already trained pilots. This will enable you to get pilots able to conduct torpedo attacks effectively in a comparatively short space of time, and boost this as more Peggy squadrons come online.

The other side of the coin is that in the context of 1944 and 1945, the IJN alone will not be able to sustain the losses of trained torpedo bomber pilots and so any weight the IJA can carry (with their increased training capacity) will give the IJN more resilience. Simply put, there are too many demands for IJN torpedo bomber pilots (carrier squadrons, 1E land-based, 2E land-based) and this will get worse as the war progresses and depending on aiframe choice (e.g you want to use the Grace as a multirole).

Night fighters. *Sigh* They all suck. I chose the Dinah and Myrt mainly because of the speed.

They do all suck.

Dinah seems the most realistic bet for the IJA. The Myrt didn't impress me, I might try the Frances NF going forward in the hopes a more durable airframe will get more mileage.

Some omissions that are key in my mind are:
- IJN recon: The Myrt recon version is a real gem and needs to be brought forward. 29 hex range and radar. Effectively a 4E patrol boat with much less cost that you can run off of carriers. The Judy recon comes early enough that you don't need to R&D that, but the Myrt is a must-have. 29 hexes of naval search is great, 29 hexes of recon is fantastic. For context, you can recon Colombo from Rangoon with that kind of range.

- IJN 2E: Nothing on the P1Y2 Frances seems absolutely insane to my mind. The Y1 model has an SR of 4, so is very hard to use. The more useful Y2 model arrives in 11/44, and it is absolutely essential that it arrives as early in 1944 as it can. The Betty and Nell are simply far to slow (not to mention unarmoured) to be on the frontlines in 1943 and beyond.

- IJA Heavy fighter: I'd like to see the Randy A. If only to supplement the NF squadrons, as you just don't have enough of them to go around.

As always, outstanding arguments. With 77 factories, we can't have everything. So what do I cut? The Tojo served me really well in my last game. I don't want to rely on the Oscar as the main IJAAF fighter through 42. That would force me to use IJN pilots in more of a ground role than I want. Especially before the A6M5c comes along. In my previous game, I shut off Tojo production but they were still relevant in Jan 44. I got a good 18 months use of them. I'm sticking with them. But, I can see making 2 operational and keeping 4 R&D.

George - Your argument is good. The George is primarily a mid-war fighter. The N1 will suffice. Then 9 R&D to the Shinden.

Frank - a vs. r. I'll probably work toward the r. Once the a becomes operational and I pull 3 factories, I'll gain 5.4 months per month of R&D on the r model. Probably 3-4 months to get that one. Then the 9 factories can switch to something else.

Zero - now that I think about it, I researched up the Zero chain. By using the Rufe upline, I'll skip the 3a altogether. No reason for it.

Let me consider the Peggy (T). I'm still not convinced it's worthwhile, even as early as 6/44. But, it is better than the Helen. I'm not sure there's much use for an IJA bomber that late in the war. I'll add it to the R&D list, just in case.

Same thing with the Francis. I understand the value for speed and armor, but are they of real use by the end of 43 and into 44?

I'll post the updated R&D list in a minute.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Mike Soll

That's all good info. I'm torn between the (small) range increase and the load capacity. Most of the time, the transports are hauling supply so the capacity is meaningless.

My transports almost never carry supplies...they are transporting or evacuating troops.[;)] So decision criteria is different.

Good point. That need increases quite a bit over time...

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Plane choices:

I rank, imo, the A6M8 as the third best plane to research early. Frank and Sam being the other two.

I rank the Peggy T as incredibly important. Far more important than switching from Sally to Helen.

I strongly disagree that all IJ NFs are poor.

I enjoy using FB and Lilly DB.

Interesting comment on the A6M8. I'm trying to focus on keeping the number of R&D models as low as possible so I can actually get some of them. Tough decisions here.

I'm just not convinced that the Peggy (T) can actually make an impact unless you devote a lot of R&D factories to it. I'm not willing to do that. I'm not saying the Peggy (T) isn't good, I think it comes too late to matter.

Ok, so what NFs do you like and why?

I like FBs too, but take them as I get them. No R&D factories to spare. The Lily DB, no thank you. 100kg bombs just don't do it for me.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

On engines (and production more generally), I get the impression that you're adopting a "just in time" approach.

I'd discourage this, simply because airframes and engines in the pool are effectively indestructible. Building extra capacity, especially for your key late war airframes, will stand you in good stead when the '44 strategic bombing campaign starts to develop.

I totally agree with you. And you're right, it is just in time production. I use that method at the beginning of the war, until late 42. At that point, the Japanese economy is at the high water mark. Then I'll ramp things up for the late game and increase production dramatically where needed.

Edit: My fear is to have huge pools of obsolete aircraft in the late game. That's just wasted HI.