Logistics in the Pacific - USSAmerica (A), Mike (J)

[ITAKLinus]

Mike, I don't think there is any need to give suggestion to a logs, but I suspect what mind_messing means is that you can get away with your approach for the early game, especially if you don't go for wild things, but in the late game you actually need to produce as much as you can of everything.

I'll give you an hint on my basic logic later on, now I'm too messed up by the gym and by my opponent's moves. [:D][:D][:D]



PS. Is it only me or I can no longer see Mike's signature with the Jap fella and all the tanks and so on?

[Mike Solli]

Updated thoughts on R&D:

Oscar to IIIa. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Tojo to IIc. 6 R&D, 4 will remain R&D.
Frank to r. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.
Ki-83. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Helen to IIa. 1 R&D will remain R&D.
Dinah NF. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Patsy. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Peggy (T). 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Ki-115. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Sam. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
George to K1. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.
Rufe to A6M5c. 4 R&D will remain R&D.
Judy to Y4. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Grace. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Jill to B6N2. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Myrt NF. 3 R&D, ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Shinden. 0 R&D, will eventually have 12 R&D.
Francis. 0 R&D, will eventually have 3 R&D.
Toka. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Until it changes later. [;)]

Edit: Forgot the George.

[Lowpe]

The 100kg SAP is I believe more effective than the 6" guns on a Brooklyn class cruiser and is the best antiFletcher weapon Japan has.

The Frances is of course the NF with serious chops. Peggy is a good upgrade over Nicks and Nicks are better than Dinah. The Zero lets you resize your Navy groups and gives your carriers good enough defense. The Irving Sa is outstanding from mid 43 to mid 44.

Myrt does punch above its stats, but not as good as Frances.

Dinah lets you convert all your Army groups to NF...but is very weak. Maybe you need a few Nicks too.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Mike, I don't think there is any need to give suggestion to a logs, but I suspect what mind_messing means is that you can get away with your approach for the early game, especially if you don't go for wild things, but in the late game you actually need to produce as much as you can of everything.

I'll give you an hint on my basic logic later on, now I'm too messed up by the gym and by my opponent's moves. [:D][:D][:D]



PS. Is it only me or I can no longer see Mike's signature with the Jap fella and all the tanks and so on?

I value everyone's input here. We all learn from it. I understand the need to produce large numbers of end game materials, but I'm very frugal early game. I do tailor it to my opponent and will increase production as needed. My first WitP game (way back in 2004-5) I ended up with a couple thousand A6M2s in the pool when I moved on to the next model. That's when I realized the need to be cautious with Japanese production.

Edit: No one can see my signature. I need to find a new place to put it so it will be visible again. Any suggestions?

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The 100kg SAP is I believe more effective than the 6" guns on a Brooklyn class cruiser and is the best antiFletcher weapon Japan has.

The Frances is of course the NF with serious chops. Peggy is a good upgrade over Nicks and Nicks are better than Dinah. The Zero lets you resize your Navy groups and gives your carriers good enough defense. The Irving Sa is outstanding from mid 43 to mid 44.

Myrt does punch above its stats, but not as good as Frances.

Dinah lets you convert all your Army groups to NF...but is very weak. Maybe you need a few Nicks too.

All good arguments. We can't produce everything though. I will produce the Nick a model when it arrives in 5/42 and use that one throughout the war. It's not bad and I will use it as a bomber killer early and night fighter later.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

As always, outstanding arguments. With 77 factories, we can't have everything. So what do I cut? The Tojo served me really well in my last game. I don't want to rely on the Oscar as the main IJAAF fighter through 42. That would force me to use IJN pilots in more of a ground role than I want. Especially before the A6M5c comes along. In my previous game, I shut off Tojo production but they were still relevant in Jan 44. I got a good 18 months use of them. I'm sticking with them. But, I can see making 2 operational and keeping 4 R&D.
[/quote]


As you say, you can't have everything. Building the Tojo means you will have 4 IJA fighters in production at various points (Oscar, Tojo, Ki84, Ki83). That's probably one too many, if you're going for a very streamlined R&D establishment (ideally you want a early, mid and late war fighter).

The choice of what to cut is a hard one. My view is that you can cut the Tojo - it doesn't have any outstanding feature that will keep it in frontline service once the Ki84 is online, while the Oscar will keep the range and manoeuvrability through in to the late-game models.

My view is that the Oscar is good enough (given it's combination of range and fantastic manoeuvrability) to hold the fort until the Ki84 comes online to take over.

Let me consider the Peggy (T). I'm still not convinced it's worthwhile, even as early as 6/44. But, it is better than the Helen. I'm not sure there's much use for an IJA bomber that late in the war. I'll add it to the R&D list, just in case.

The Peggy is worthwhile for the extra pilot training capacity for torpedo bomber pilots alone. That it's a reasonable improvement over the Helen is just an extra bonus.

Same thing with the Francis. I understand the value for speed and armor, but are they of real use by the end of 43 and into 44?

Absolutely. At the end of the day, there's only so many places you can cover with your carriers. The single engine IJN aircraft have fairly limited range. You'll need them as a replacement for the Betty and Nell. The Nell you can keep as a secondary naval search platform, but you need the Frances for torpedo attacks against serious opposition.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

On engines (and production more generally), I get the impression that you're adopting a "just in time" approach.

I'd discourage this, simply because airframes and engines in the pool are effectively indestructible. Building extra capacity, especially for your key late war airframes, will stand you in good stead when the '44 strategic bombing campaign starts to develop.

I totally agree with you. And you're right, it is just in time production. I use that method at the beginning of the war, until late 42. At that point, the Japanese economy is at the high water mark. Then I'll ramp things up for the late game and increase production dramatically where needed.

Edit: My fear is to have huge pools of obsolete aircraft in the late game. That's just wasted HI.

What's "obsolete" is relative.

The Judy is made obsolete by the Grace, but having "obsolete" Judy fly a kamikaze mission is substantially better than having the same mission being carried out by a biplane.

Come 1945, you tend to find a use for these planes.

It's also important to make the point that I've yet to see or hear of any game that has ended due to the IJ player running out of HI points. It's always been supply that has been the pressure point.

[Mike Solli]

Here are the models I may (or may not) produce throughout the war by engine type:

Ha-31: Ki-46-II, Ki-57-II
Ha-32: B6N2, E15K1, G4M, H8K, N1K1 Rex, Ki-21-IIa, P1Y2
Ha-33: D3A2, D4Y3/4, E13A1, G3M, H6K, L3Y2, L2D2, Ki-46-III, Ki-46-III NF
Ha-34: Ki-44-IIc, Ki-49-IIa
Ha-35: A6M, B5N2, Toka, Ki-43, Ki-45 KAIa, Ki-56, Ki-115, A6M2-N
Hitachi Amakaze: E14Y1
Ha-5: MC-21
Ha-60: D4Y1/2
Nakajima Hikari: B5N1
Kawasaki (early): Ki-32
Ha-43: A7M, J7W1, Ki-74, Ki-83
Ha-45: B7A2, C6N1-S, N1K1, Ki-84, Ki-67-Ia (T)

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Updated thoughts on R&D:

Oscar to IIIa. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Tojo to IIc. 6 R&D, 4 will remain R&D.
Frank to r. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.
Ki-83. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Helen to IIa. 1 R&D will remain R&D.
Dinah NF. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Patsy. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Peggy (T). 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Ki-115. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Sam. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Rufe to A6M5c. 4 R&D will remain R&D.
Judy to Y4. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Grace. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Jill to B6N2. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Myrt NF. 3 R&D, ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Shinden. 0 R&D, will eventually have 12 R&D.
Francis. 0 R&D, will eventually have 3 R&D.
Toka. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Until it changes later. [;)]

I'm not convinced from my experiences with them that the Toka and the 115 are a worthwhile target for R&D. They're both exceptionally fast aircraft, but with a very limited range.

I think they can be dispensed with, given that:

1) The IJA will be producing both the Peggy and Patsy, which can fill this role in much the same way.
2) The IJN will have a number of aircraft that can fill this role better (Judy, Frances). While the conversions incur a PP cost, there's not much for the IJ to spend PP's on come 1945 so this isn't much of a limiting factor.

In short, I think that R&D on purpose built kamikazes is a bit of a waste.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

It's also important to make the point that I've yet to see or hear of any game that has ended due to the IJ player running out of HI points. It's always been supply that has been the pressure point.

Supply and I will add Fighters and Victory Points. Screw the pooch on fighters and you have all of sudden lost your carriers because you had the A6M5-5c versus Hellcats and Corsairs, or you can't stop anything within Lightning/Corsair/Jugs range or you are night bombed out of existence.

Sadly, I played a game and ran out of resources. Something only I could do.[;)]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

The 100kg SAP is I believe more effective than the 6" guns on a Brooklyn class cruiser and is the best antiFletcher weapon Japan has.

The Frances is of course the NF with serious chops. Peggy is a good upgrade over Nicks and Nicks are better than Dinah. The Zero lets you resize your Navy groups and gives your carriers good enough defense. The Irving Sa is outstanding from mid 43 to mid 44.

Myrt does punch above its stats, but not as good as Frances.

Dinah lets you convert all your Army groups to NF...but is very weak. Maybe you need a few Nicks too.

All good arguments. We can't produce everything though. I will produce the Nick a model when it arrives in 5/42 and use that one throughout the war. It's not bad and I will use it as a bomber killer early and night fighter later.

Not suggesting you produce everything. Also not suggesting you minimize your supply expenditure. Sometimes you can generate more supply over the course of the game by spending it up front or once again in late 1942 as your first round of r&d factories finish.

I don't see much point in researching in Dec of 1941 for a plane that arrives later than the Sam. My supposition is that those factories would better serve you in getting some of the earlier models sooner and help guarantee a very strong opening for Japan.

I wouldn't bother putting Nick FB on night fighting duty. Better off with Petes, they are probably more effective and cost less when they do get shot down (which will be less often than the Nick).

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Updated thoughts on R&D:

Oscar to IIIa. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Tojo to IIc. 6 R&D, 4 will remain R&D.
Frank to r. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.
Ki-83. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Helen to IIa. 1 R&D will remain R&D.
Dinah NF. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Patsy. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Peggy (T). 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Ki-115. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Sam. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Rufe to A6M5c. 4 R&D will remain R&D.
Judy to Y4. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Grace. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Jill to B6N2. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Myrt NF. 3 R&D, ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
Shinden. 0 R&D, will eventually have 12 R&D.
Francis. 0 R&D, will eventually have 3 R&D.
Toka. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Until it changes later. [;)]

I'm not convinced from my experiences with them that the Toka and the 115 are a worthwhile target for R&D. They're both exceptionally fast aircraft, but with a very limited range.

I think they can be dispensed with, given that:

1) The IJA will be producing both the Peggy and Patsy, which can fill this role in much the same way.
2) The IJN will have a number of aircraft that can fill this role better (Judy, Frances). While the conversions incur a PP cost, there's not much for the IJ to spend PP's on come 1945 so this isn't much of a limiting factor.

In short, I think that R&D on purpose built kamikazes is a bit of a waste.

+1, other than role playing or for flavor the dedicated kamikazes are very weak. Kind of sad, to be honest.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


What's "obsolete" is relative.

The Judy is made obsolete by the Grace, but having "obsolete" Judy fly a kamikaze mission is substantially better than having the same mission being carried out by a biplane.

Come 1945, you tend to find a use for these planes.

+1
Japan is desperately trying to trade their devices at favorable victory points and generally you can. I even used Claudes and Nates in late 1944 in good trades. I would liked to have used Frank R though.[;)]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Updated thoughts on R&D:

Oscar to IIIa. 3 R&D will remain R&D.

Do keep going to the Oscar IV. It's decent late war and obviously cheap. Better than Tojo or Ki-100 as service 1.

Tojo to IIc. 6 R&D, 4 will remain R&D.
Frank to r. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.
Ki-83. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.

This is a huge commitment, but I do love this plane. The Frank will be your mainstay. The Ki-83 is your IJAAF sweeper.

Helen to IIa. 1 R&D will remain R&D.
Dinah NF. 3 R&D will remain R&D.

Don't bother. Not useful. Get the Nick NF as there is one group that only uses it, and it's way better than other IJAAF planes (durability, firepower). I also used the Nick FB effectively as a supplement NF. I hate using any day fighter on night duty as losses are usually much higher, but the Nick Fb did okay and the bomber groups can convert to it. Works on day duty as a part of your CAP (low layered CAP hopefully) at bomber level.

Patsy. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Peggy (T). 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.
Ki-115. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Range too short. I agree with Mindmessing. Not worth it. Also durability is a secondary hindrance as few can make it through even in range.

Sam. 12 R&D. ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.
George to K1. 12 R&D, 9 will remain R&D.

George K5 is an amazing plane. It was my most surprising find of the late war. Firepower allowed it to be a great sweeper as well as a defensive CAP specialist.

Rufe to A6M5c. 4 R&D will remain R&D.
Judy to Y4. 3 R&D will remain R&D.
Grace. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Jill to B6N2. 3 R&D, 1-2 will remain R&D.
Myrt NF. 3 R&D, ? will remain R&D depending on when it becomes operational.

Mey. Not worth it when you have the Irving line much easier, and earlier. The Irving SA with radar stands up in the late war just fine.

You will not get this early enough to matter against a good opponent, and unless you have a limiting HR against NF (I still think it is a decent idea, although I've learned how to defend more effectively through several late war games), you will get pummeled in 44 by night raids. The Irving intercepts well in spite of its speed. Use it.

Shinden. 0 R&D, will eventually have 12 R&D.
Francis. 0 R&D, will eventually have 3 R&D.
Toka. 0 R&D, will eventually have 6 R&D.

Put these on the Irving NF. Skip the Toka.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I'm looking for suggestions on (of all things) IJAAF transports. I really like the Helen transport, but that means more Ha-34 engines for the duration of the war. What do you guys think?

I use this transport as well, and since I will produce a small number of Tojo's to the end I 'll keep one engine factory going with the Ha-34. As has been said the Tojo will still be able to handle the Soviets when they come into the fray. Don't know if that's true, but I hope to find out someday.[:D]

I still use every single transport until their stocks run out. I too use the Theresas in Manchukuo. There're also some 'free' engines for one of the Topsey's IIRC. I even produce a handful of Hickory's for later arriving units as there're 'free' engines for this plane too.

I do like the Thalias, but early in the game there's a lot of competition for the Ha-35, and I want to get them to bonus territory ASAP.

BTW, the way I usually play, I don't lose too many transports.

[rustysi]

Well, gotta go now, back for more later.

[rustysi]

the Sally is very good with 3k capacity.

1k, 2k, 3k, doesn't matter, you get 1 supply for every multiple of 2 rounded down (minimum of 1). So with 3k, you get egg-roll[:D], no wait, 1 supply. Two supply doesn't come in until you have 4k capacity.

[rustysi]

Oscar - 3 - to the III. I can be persuaded to dump this line altogether and just take them as they come.

I like 2 for this one, throw the other one to the Ki-49.

Dinah NF - 3 - It "may" get more R&D factories, but I doubt it.

I did this too. I base it on getting the aircraft about two months before the historical invasion of the Marianas (6/44). I should come out just so.

I want the A6M3a (range)

Originally, I liked this plane myself, for the same reason. With their light durability, same as the M2, they die in droves. I'll not develop these again.

These planes are not part of the 'Rufe line'. The Rufe goes straight to the A6M5. The A6M3 is an independent path.

Night fighters. *Sigh* They all suck. I chose the Dinah and Myrt mainly because of the speed.

It does seem that you are correct and the Japanese NF's suck. That doesn't excuse the fact that you've not selected an army NF. Although you could just get one 'naturally'.[:D]

Edit:D'oh, just rechecked, the Dinah is army.

[rustysi]

I do like the Sally transport. I'm going to use the 101 Ha-5 engines to build 50 of them

The Topsey I uses this same engine, build them instead and then upgrade to the Topsey II (available 3/42). Now you may build 50 I's, and however many you wish to split with the Ki-46-II. You'll save the cost to change the factory.

BTW, recall that when transporting from friendly base to friendly base the transports base range is used, 1/2 35, for Topsey, 1/2 32, for Sally. Rounded down that means Topsey wins by 1.[:'(]

IIRC, I got all this from you... Were you been????[:D]

It uses the Ha-31 engine. That's also a dead end engine. I'll never build another one. That factory is destined to be converted.

[8D]

Edit:Me thinks you may need to go back and read your old AAR.[:D]

[rustysi]

I haven't really checked, but where's this coming from that different transports carry more or less based on something other than 1 device per 2k (rounded down, minimum one) capacity.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Mike Soll

That's all good info. I'm torn between the (small) range increase and the load capacity. Most of the time, the transports are hauling supply so the capacity is meaningless.

My transports almost never carry supplies...they are transporting or evacuating troops.[;)] So decision criteria is different.

I always have mine carrying something once they're trained up, and that includes supply.