Logistics in the Pacific - USSAmerica (A), Mike (J)

[rustysi]

Get the Nick NF

Check this, it uses a different engine. IIRC its the Ha-31, and that's not an option with your plans.

[ITAKLinus]

Well, imperial industry and all related tricks is definitely my favorite topic in witpae.


Now, my perspective regarding IJ planes is that 90% of the posture is related to Japanese strategic posture and player's preferences.
So, there is no one-size-fits-it-all, albeit there are various no-brains.


Having said that, my favorite set up is the one below:



FIGHTERS
A) OSCAR. Heavy investment and production of OSCAR as SR=1 fighter for all the war. It's a good plane, the 2x20mm have enough punch for late-war allied fighters. It has a very good range, decent payload for alternative uses, magnificent MVR and those nice 2x20mm. It uses HA-35, which helps in rationalizing engine production and you can keep the initial Oscar-Ic factory forever, another relevant point.
I do research every model but I try to produce just the -Ic, maybe an intermediary one and the -IV. There is no real need to complete the research for every model: say you have the -III in six months, you might very well accelerate it only three months and then switch to the -IV so that you get the -IV in three months, when the -III becomes online and you synchronize the two so that you can upgrade your production factory. I don't know if I expressed myself.

B) FRANK. I love this plane. It's the fighter which basically saves your game. I usually go straight for the -R without producing the -A. I'm trying a game in which I've invested wildly on the -B, which is a different path and which is a better plane overall than the -R.

C) GEORGE. George is a great fighter. Nothing to add. It's just wonderful.

D) A6M5. I go against the general preference of -5c or A6M8 and I state my attitude regarding this: I prefer to go for the A6M5, which arrives fairly quickly and that's it. I don't go further than that since I look for the A7M2.
A6M5c is slow. A6M8 has no range and arrives late. A6M5 is basically an A6M8 without armor and with a better range, it's a great plane and it arrives very early with minimal effort.

My idea is fairly basic:
Tony is rubbish. Tojo makes wonders but it's the kind of fighter which makes you win more in a period in which you already win with what you have: you will suffer additional losses in using other fighters, but who cares in the end? Also, Tojo goes against you when you create low-layered CAPs due to its amazing climb rate. It's range is awful and has a small bomb payload. Last, but not least, its heavy MGs are utterly unable to cope with allied heavy ariframes.
I deem A6M5c too slow and A6M8 not a big deal compared to the investment needed for it. I do prefer the A6M5 and a rush for A7M2 with massive investments.

A7M2 is wonderful and it's a real improvement over the A6M*s. The rest is just background noise. Also, A6M3 is a big no for me.


Late war you want a low-level layered CAP with Oscars at the bottom and Frank/George over. A6M5s as long as needed and then you switch to the A7M2.

Shinden is a safe bet, but I do everything with A7M2 once it's online and I'd rather invest on a IJAAF plane. I'm a great proponent of Ki-94-II but I know it's highly questionable by many. Had a game with it in September 1944, trust me, it's a big deal. In more reasonable games, anyway, you need something for late war and it's up to you.

This setup leaves you with 4 models for most of the war (2 IJAAF and 2 IJNAF), one of which embarked and one land based). Until Frank and George come online, you do the trick with various Oscars and A6M5s, they're both fairly good planes for 1942 and they can have a decent survivability well into 1943 as well.
Mid-war you have the Oscar+George/Frank and the dedicated embarked A6M5, while you strive to get A7M2s, which further rationalize your setup taking out of the picture A6M5s and Georges.

BOMBERS.

Here the fun begins.

A) NELL. You want the second Nell, which is very long range. I love them and I use them well into 1944. They die in droves against any CAP and any FLAK, but they have many positive aspects: very long range for NavS (you will never ever have enough NavS even when Dinah-III come into play); long range interdiction of sea routes (less useful); torpedoes; infinite re-deployment range; almost immediate availability.
I do produce 50 per-month and zero Betty, but I am mad. I think you can do the trick with less than that. They are phased out in favor of Frances, which however comes online very late.

B) HELEN-IIA. I don't R&D this guy (sometimes I do for very peculiar matches) and I produces immense amounts of the model, but I don't advice that. I think you can keep producing the various Sally/Lily until the Helen-IIa comes online. I don't produce the initial Helen.

C) PEGGY-T I research this plane like if there is no tomorrow. One billion factories aren't enough for me: I will always want more. It's the game-changer for IJAAF. It gives serious anti-shipping capabilities to IJAAF bombers, which enjoy a second youth during late game. Good range. Good SR. Good speed. Good durability.
A magnificent plane. A must. A super-must.

E) LILY-DIVE BOMBER I let this guy come online on its own without R&D. It's decent in minor roles but the bulk of my IJAAF bombers will go to Peggy-T. I try to retrain the huge amount of trained pilots to NavB as well, so that they're ready to be emplyed in the DB role, when the Lily comes online. I aim at having very few non anti-shipping IJAAF bombers in late game.

F) FRANCES I R&D the plane without too much investment. The initial model with SR=4 is not really usable so you need the second model. I love the plane but I am generally short of factories to use. It substitutes the Nell and therefore be prepared to the supply tradeoff between the two.

G) JUDY You want this ASAP. I generally invest an insane amount of R&D on this plane because I love the 800Kg bomb of the last model, which, couple with its SR=1, makes it a very dangerous plane for every allied ship. In general, I think a moderate investment on the plane is very wise. I think like 5 factories or so. The initial model, IIRC, has a very good range and you might want to produce it as an interim substitute to the awful Val. It uses a peculiar engine (Ha-60) and this sucks.

H) GRACE Nothing to say. You want this guy ASAP because the Jills are awful already in mid-game: the delta in cruise speed between Jills and Judies make the strikes messed up and it's a problem. The Grace solves the problem. And many other ones, also, such as the giving NavT training skills to DB groups, something extremely valuable.

I) TORPEDO BOMBERS I use the Kate-I and -II as long as I can. I also use the Jeans, figure out... Jills are an improvement but not that much.


OTHER PLANES

A) FPs Produce the Jake in huge quantities. Initial pool of Glen's engines might be sufficient. There are various engines in the pool which might be used for other FP models which have their use in NavS. Some areas are covered well with Daves f.ex., without the need of Jakes' range and it helps in reducing the pressure over Jakes. I produce between 50 and 70 Jakes per month and they are barely sufficient when late game comes.

B) PAs Emily and that's it. I produce the initial Emily which has a 30hex range and I'm happy with it.

C) TRs Thalias for the reasons mentioned in another post.

D) FBs Nicks, but I hate them

E) 1-E LBs I like to produce the Ann and the Mary and use them in low level ASW, where they die in droves due to FlaK from subs. It's still ok-ish.






To summarize.

I produce very few fighters and I do invest super heavily in the very few models I do research. I am not afraid of putting over 10 factories on A7M2 and same on Frank. Actually, I routinely put more.

Early game you do with what you have and you can still perform very well with those planes without the need for marginal improvements.

I don't care of marginal improvements in the bomber field either. Either I have a true improvement or nothing.




There are 77 R&D factories. If you put 30 on Sam/Frank, you have only 47 for the rest.
Let's say 4 on Rufe with A6M5 as a target. 43 remaining.
6 on the Oscar. 37 remaining.
5 on the Judy. 32 remaining.
10 on the Peggy-T (yes, I go that far). 22 remaining.
And here you have to fit the Grace, the George, the Shinden and the Frances. Not an easy task. Note that the Shinden generally gets additional factories in a while in my games.


In line of principle, however, whatever you do, go big or go home. That's my basic advice. And if you 'go big', your result has also to be big. A marginal improvement is not worth going big. That's why any factory on the Tojo (to name a model I dislike and it's generally controversial to reject as I do) is worse than putting one more factory on the A7M2, which is a game-changer.





My two cents in few (but still many) words.

[obvert]

Night fighters. *Sigh* They all suck. I chose the Dinah and Myrt mainly because of the speed.

It does seem that you are correct and the Japanese NF's suck. That doesn't excuse the fact that you've not selected an army NF. Although you could just get one 'naturally'.[:D]

Edit:D'oh, just rechecked, the Dinah is army.

They don't all suck. They work just fine. As long as you choose the right ones and use them in specific ways. [:)]

You need numbers, you have to chose them not for speed but for radar, durability and firepower, and you have to use good pilots. Most IJ players miss all three and end up thinking NF suck.

It's a combined strategy though and requires good AA defenses as well back in the Home Islands, including strategic placement of many of the radar sets and big base forces with DP guns.

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Apart from NavS and ASW, Jake units can train almost everything, but most importantly they can train Air and Def skills so you don’t have to use as many Fighter units for fighter pilot training.

Very true, but don't you lose some experience when you put a FP pilot into a fighter? I know that happens at times, but I can't remember when. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

Looks like you've received enough opinions on aircraft production so I'll dodge the pirates and go back a few pages to this one.

Here's a worked example of FP to F pilot transfer.
Not a single point of experience was lost from moving these FP pilots that trained their 70 Air skills on Jakes.
They didn't have much experience to start with, so it might be different for a 60-70 experience FP pilot.

Now that I've made these pilots official card carrying members of the Fighter Pilot Club they will return to the fighter pilot pool, then move to a different on map fighter "Operational Training Unit" to train up their Strafe/Def skills, but they could also do that training course in Jakes before transferring to a Fighter unit. That should also get them to about 50ish experience.

They would then move again to a rear area operational unit to fly CAP100% range 0 until their experience gets up to 70 (or the Allies arrive to interfere). They could also fly CAP100% range 0 missions in Jakes.

It's worth considering using some Jake units to conduct on map fighter pilot training to free up more IJN land based fighter units to move towards the front line bases.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

Apart from NavS and ASW, Jake units can train almost everything, but most importantly they can train Air and Def skills so you don’t have to use as many Fighter units for fighter pilot training.

Very true, but don't you lose some experience when you put a FP pilot into a fighter? I know that happens at times, but I can't remember when. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

Looks like you've received enough opinions on aircraft production so I'll dodge the pirates and go back a few pages to this one.

Here's a worked example of FP to F pilot transfer.
Not a single point of experience was lost from moving these FP pilots that trained their 70 Air skills on Jakes.
They didn't have much experience to start with, so it might be different for a 60-70 experience FP pilot.

Now that I've made these pilots official card carrying members of the Fighter Pilot Club they will return to the fighter pilot pool, then move to a different on map fighter "Operational Training Unit" to train up their Strafe/Def skills, but they could also do that training course in Jakes before transferring to a Fighter unit. That should also get them to about 50ish experience.

They would then move again to a rear area operational unit to fly CAP100% range 0 until their experience gets up to 70 (or the Allies arrive to interfere). They could also fly CAP100% range 0 missions in Jakes.

It's worth considering using some Jake units to conduct on map fighter pilot training to free up more IJN land based fighter units to move towards the front line bases.

That's very interesting. Did you move them from Jake directly to the George unit? I wonder if they would lose experience if they moved from Jake to the reserve then to the George?

[Mike Solli]

By the way, I'm setting up my China garrisons so I can free up as many divisions as possible.

[JoV]

Clearly like many others, your original AAR was my gateway into learning out how to play the good guys. Glad for another run of it to follow [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Still working on the easy stuff. Did all the Ansyu-C, Kiso and To'su xAKLs.

Ansyu-C: All will be converted to PBs. Originally, I liked them for their (relatively) long range as faster (14 kt) escorts, but eventually realized that they were excellent for fast transport TFs. Capacity of 1000 was nice and they usually could get in and out without being spotted in 1 ship convoys. I'll use them in both capacities.

Kiso: I converted 52 to ACM, 31 to PB with 16 currently in TFs. The survivors of those remaining 16 will be converted to PBs. None will remain as xAKLs.

To'su: 48 converted to ACM, 43 to PB with 1 in a TF. It'll convert to a PB if she survives. None will remain as xAKLs.

I converted more to ACMs than last game. They will maintain defensive minefields until that base becomes a frontline base. The ACMs at the frontline bases are doomed to die.

Total breakdown:

Ansyu-C: 68 PB, 39 xAKL until they reach a port where they can convert.

Kiso: 48 PB, 52 ACM, 16 xAKL

To'su: 46 PB, 42 ACM, 1 xAKL

Am curious about the complete absence of minesweeper conversions here. At 1vp a pop I find the little guys quite useful in that role. Moreso than as slow 10 or 11 knot PBs.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Here's a worked example of FP to F pilot transfer.
Not a single point of experience was lost from moving these FP pilots that trained their 70 Air skills on Jakes.
They didn't have much experience to start with, so it might be different for a 60-70 experience FP pilot.

It is fairly well known bug that different pilot transfer methods result in different delay and xp loss. Notably using "Request veteran->Release N pilots" option does not inccur delays or xp losses at all. Clicking on the names does though.

[jdsrae]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
That's very interesting. Did you move them from Jake directly to the George unit? I wonder if they would lose experience if they moved from Jake to the reserve then to the George?

I sent them to reserve first, then from there to the George unit.
I did use the buttons that move multiple pilots at a time rather than clicking on individuals, so that sounds like the reason.
I tried it again with 10x 40ish experience pilots by selecting the names and it gave them 5-7 days delay but didn't change the experience.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

By the way, I'm setting up my China garrisons so I can free up as many divisions as possible.

Very nice!

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

By the way, I'm setting up my China garrisons so I can free up as many divisions as possible.

Very good. Make sure you use your 'Chinese' units to the fullest. Remember some of them may breakdown.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: JoV

Clearly like many others, your original AAR was my gateway into learning out how to play the good guys. Glad for another run of it to follow [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Still working on the easy stuff. Did all the Ansyu-C, Kiso and To'su xAKLs.

Ansyu-C: All will be converted to PBs. Originally, I liked them for their (relatively) long range as faster (14 kt) escorts, but eventually realized that they were excellent for fast transport TFs. Capacity of 1000 was nice and they usually could get in and out without being spotted in 1 ship convoys. I'll use them in both capacities.

Kiso: I converted 52 to ACM, 31 to PB with 16 currently in TFs. The survivors of those remaining 16 will be converted to PBs. None will remain as xAKLs.

To'su: 48 converted to ACM, 43 to PB with 1 in a TF. It'll convert to a PB if she survives. None will remain as xAKLs.

I converted more to ACMs than last game. They will maintain defensive minefields until that base becomes a frontline base. The ACMs at the frontline bases are doomed to die.

Total breakdown:

Ansyu-C: 68 PB, 39 xAKL until they reach a port where they can convert.

Kiso: 48 PB, 52 ACM, 16 xAKL

To'su: 46 PB, 42 ACM, 1 xAKL

Am curious about the complete absence of minesweeper conversions here. At 1vp a pop I find the little guys quite useful in that role. Moreso than as slow 10 or 11 knot PBs.

That's a great question! There is a severe lack of Japanese escorts at the beginning of the war. I use the good destroyers to escort warships, for their ASW, AA (such as it is) and torpedo complements. My opinion is that a crappy escort is better than no escort. Why? If there is no escort, a sub (even the US subs with crappy torpedoes at the beginning of the war) will surface and use their guns (which work) and can possibly engage multiple targets. I want to minimize the number of shots taken. The Japanese merchant fleet is pretty fragile and often susceptible to a single torpedo. Sure, there is a surplus of merchant shipping, but VPs are VPs, regardless of where the originate.

Yes, the AMcs are useful. You'll get a bunch of them later, and the To'sus and Kisos can be converted to them later too. I like to keep 2 in each port that matters, just to take care of enemy mines that may appear.

When all is said and done, I'll have ~200 PBs available, half of them Ansyus. The other half are either 12 kt To'sus or 11 kt Kisos, which aren't very good, but serve the purpose discussed above. I also cheer every time one of them is torpedoed instead of the merchant ship they are protecting. That's more torpedoes that aren't possibly destroying the valuable cargo in the merchant ships.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Here's a worked example of FP to F pilot transfer.
Not a single point of experience was lost from moving these FP pilots that trained their 70 Air skills on Jakes.
They didn't have much experience to start with, so it might be different for a 60-70 experience FP pilot.

It is fairly well known bug that different pilot transfer methods result in different delay and xp loss. Notably using "Request veteran->Release N pilots" option does not inccur delays or xp losses at all. Clicking on the names does though.

Wow! I never knew that! Thanks!

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

By the way, I'm setting up my China garrisons so I can free up as many divisions as possible.

Very good. Make sure you use your 'Chinese' units to the fullest. Remember some of them may breakdown.

I finally finished China. And yes, I do break down a number of the Mongolian Cav and Temp Divisions to us them to the best advantage. That really takes some time. I want to get as many of the "good" divisions in the front lines as possible. Good is relative but compared to the starting Chinese, it's actually pretty nice.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: JoV

Clearly like many others, your original AAR was my gateway into learning out how to play the good guys. Glad for another run of it to follow [:D]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Still working on the easy stuff. Did all the Ansyu-C, Kiso and To'su xAKLs.

Ansyu-C: All will be converted to PBs. Originally, I liked them for their (relatively) long range as faster (14 kt) escorts, but eventually realized that they were excellent for fast transport TFs. Capacity of 1000 was nice and they usually could get in and out without being spotted in 1 ship convoys. I'll use them in both capacities.

Kiso: I converted 52 to ACM, 31 to PB with 16 currently in TFs. The survivors of those remaining 16 will be converted to PBs. None will remain as xAKLs.

To'su: 48 converted to ACM, 43 to PB with 1 in a TF. It'll convert to a PB if she survives. None will remain as xAKLs.

I converted more to ACMs than last game. They will maintain defensive minefields until that base becomes a frontline base. The ACMs at the frontline bases are doomed to die.

Total breakdown:

Ansyu-C: 68 PB, 39 xAKL until they reach a port where they can convert.

Kiso: 48 PB, 52 ACM, 16 xAKL

To'su: 46 PB, 42 ACM, 1 xAKL

Am curious about the complete absence of minesweeper conversions here. At 1vp a pop I find the little guys quite useful in that role. Moreso than as slow 10 or 11 knot PBs.

That's a great question! There is a severe lack of Japanese escorts at the beginning of the war. I use the good destroyers to escort warships, for their ASW, AA (such as it is) and torpedo complements. My opinion is that a crappy escort is better than no escort. Why? If there is no escort, a sub (even the US subs with crappy torpedoes at the beginning of the war) will surface and use their guns (which work) and can possibly engage multiple targets. I want to minimize the number of shots taken. The Japanese merchant fleet is pretty fragile and often susceptible to a single torpedo. Sure, there is a surplus of merchant shipping, but VPs are VPs, regardless of where the originate.

Yes, the AMcs are useful. You'll get a bunch of them later, and the To'sus and Kisos can be converted to them later too. I like to keep 2 in each port that matters, just to take care of enemy mines that may appear.

When all is said and done, I'll have ~200 PBs available, half of them Ansyus. The other half are either 12 kt To'sus or 11 kt Kisos, which aren't very good, but serve the purpose discussed above. I also cheer every time one of them is torpedoed instead of the merchant ship they are protecting. That's more torpedoes that aren't possibly destroying the valuable cargo in the merchant ships.

In my second attempt to play Japan, I did something very similar. Same idea, even a slow escort will keep a sub submerged....GP

[ITAKLinus]

I strongly dislike those PBs, but that's the only thing available and so we have to do with what we have.

Generally, I leave 11knts PBs to long-range escort. 12knts PBs to short-range escort. 14knts PBs for either long range escort of 14-knts convoys or fast transport (1,000 capacity is actually quite good). Beware that these PBs are very fuel intensive after all and so over time the cost of having them sailing around is quite high.

10 knts SCs are for the Gozan class, which, in my games, operate in Hokkaido and Fusan area mostly. Faster SC classes provide proper ASW patrols. I don't care too much of water depth since I mostly try to make enemy sub waste torpedoes, rather than trying to sink them directly.

F.ex. there are various hexes between Onshu and Bonins and between Bonins and Marianas which must have ASW patrols all the time and I like to employ SCs for the duty. Their small range is not a problem, given the abundance of fuel at nearby bases.



In general, I do believe coastal minesweepers are completely useless once you have finished the initial conquests. I keep few DMS scattered around the map if I really have the need but generally I don't.

Clearly, it also depends on how the allied player uses his mines. Sub minelaying is cool, but the spots where he can place mines with a reasonable chance of success aren't many and in any case you, as Japanese, can't cover them all properly so you have to live with the threat of mines and just respond when you know they've been placed.

Personally, I even let most of the minefields in Onshu decay because I don't want to pay for the fuel needed for them. This is very questionable, but I have my reasons.

Also I find quite useful to mine quite well the islands SOUTH of Tokio and SOUTH of Nagasaki (don't remember the bases there).
Allied subs don't pass there and you catch maybe one or two initially, but the point is that you get free sea routes to the SOUTH.
From SOUTH of Tokio, then, you have few more hexes and you reach Bonins, also mined, and from there there is a bigger jump in the direction of Marianas.
From Marianas, finally, there is the big problem of reaching Truk. There are various possible routes and it's up to the player.

These minefields help in keeping the dangerous areas in specific hexes and thus concentrate the NavS/ASW assets there.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Also I find quite useful to mine quite well the islands SOUTH of Tokio and SOUTH of Nagasaki (don't remember the bases there).
Allied subs don't pass there and you catch maybe one or two initially, but the point is that you get free sea routes to the SOUTH.
From SOUTH of Tokio, then, you have few more hexes and you reach Bonins, also mined, and from there there is a bigger jump in the direction of Marianas.

That is an outstanding idea! [X(] [:)]

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

Also I find quite useful to mine quite well the islands SOUTH of Tokio and SOUTH of Nagasaki (don't remember the bases there).
Allied subs don't pass there and you catch maybe one or two initially, but the point is that you get free sea routes to the SOUTH.
From SOUTH of Tokio, then, you have few more hexes and you reach Bonins, also mined, and from there there is a bigger jump in the direction of Marianas.

That is an outstanding idea! [X(] [:)]

I'm the king of "coastal" command to convoys ahahah


I'll post a list of the fanciest ones once I'm back home


EDIT: I have literally ZERO 'official' backing for my statements, but I can see with fair accuracy that you get away with 50-70 mines. More than that, it's better but you simply don't have enough mines in pool to mine all the places I like to mine.
50-70 makes the allied subs scared enough to stay away and gives you free shipping lanes. You can run many convoys with much less escorts and focus your ASW assets. F.ex. you don't need to make intense ASW in many areas because your convoys are always on minefields and they can somehow be safe. I highlight the "somehow", though.....

[RangerJoe]

For more "free" mines, the To'su conversions come with mines not from the pools. They can be converted to something else and then bake to the minelayers with another load of mines. Only 20 mines per conversion but if you don't need them otherwise . . .

A plus is when you have a trap with high ASW SC escorts at a base with shallow waters along with the minefield and a SC ASW TF. Any mine hit before or after an ASW attack . . .

[btd64]

Hey Mike, I thought you said that there was more action here. But this thread was almost ready to roll onto page 2. I know, I saw the old aar....GP