Axis Winter Fort Construction

[GibsonPete]

As the Axis player in 1941 when do you recommend the construction of forts to deal with the harsh winter? When is it too late and when is it too early? [&:]

[AlbertN]

I am kind of interested in that too but I assume one will learn the hard way. By gaming!

[IanW]

Do you mean forts that let you overstack divisions, or do you mean an adequate defensive line ?

In either case, the key isn't your lines, it's your supply lines and response forces.

1941-2 Soviets cannot defeat well-supplied German formations in good condition.

They can defeat freezing, starving German formations with no ammunition.

So make sure you've got that, and got some fire brigades that can free encircled troops.

[GibsonPete]

IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

[freeboy]

supplied troops in good order will need to be close to depot, in a city or town or fortified unit you can build a line like this from the start of mud

[IanW]

Do you need them capturing victory cities before winter, or securing the rail lines that you can put depots on to supply them during the winter, or cutting off Russian armies that could be dangerous in winter ?

If you don't need to do a December offensive in the snow before the really bad winter hits, then you can start preparing winter lines earlier.

But first, map out your Depot Line. Then figure where the troops have to be to support it. Then figure where your response forces can be to rescue what units when encircled.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

simply you can't in many places. Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division but you can't rely on the fortification units, they take 2-3 turns to fill out and then are slow to construct.

I've a game into July 42 and have started to build my rear defensive lines for 1943 hopefully a year in advance, its that sort of time scale.

IanW is right, level 2 forts are not the solution, being in decent supply is. So think of your winter lines in terms of your logistic layout and to some extent poor terrain.

My feeling is you want to get out of the winter with no lost formations - its not so much the cost of replacing their contents its that they return with dire experience levels. Most of your casualties go as wounded and it seems you get around 15-20% back in late spring.

So add that to your existing manpower reserves and bringing your front line formations up to strength is relatively easy if you take care over the refit process. In the winter, if a unit starts to get below 35% TOE get it out of the line to refit, better to see some local Soviet gains than to lose a unit or have it so run down it can't be easily recovered.

And manage your AFVs with care, get the SU formations out of the front and back in the reserve or OKH, try to preserve as many tanks as you can. You will get a lot damaged, the key is not to convert this to destroyed. And a key to that is not to get your Pzrs forced to retreat

[IanW]

There's also another decision - where are you okay with the Soviets breaking through and leaving a large salient that you can cut off once the weather gets good and the German Army can operate again.

You may be better off leaving a sector weak that you have good supply lines to in Spring, in the hope several Soviet armies get enthusiastic and push forward from it.

Note this happened a lot in the original war ...

[GibsonPete]

Thanks to everyone for the insight and advice. I remember the shock the first time I experienced the harsh winter turns from the original game. You have made me realize solutions for that game will not work for this one. I will examine what I can reach, what I can supply and what I can hold. The VP bonus for early capture may in fact be a sort of trap... Rostov? Again thank you for the perspective.

[freeboy]

I am not sure what you mean? I try to take kiev Smolensk and LEnn.. then push as far as feasible in south same .. then look at your rail.. if its in diss order stop in fall and build it and some forts in key places

[Kursk1943]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

simply you can't in many places. Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division but you can't rely on the fortification units, they take 2-3 turns to fill out and then are slow to construct.

I've a game into July 42 and have started to build my rear defensive lines for 1943 hopefully a year in advance, its that sort of time scale.

IanW is right, level 2 forts are not the solution, being in decent supply is. So think of your winter lines in terms of your logistic layout and to some extent poor terrain.

My feeling is you want to get out of the winter with no lost formations - its not so much the cost of replacing their contents its that they return with dire experience levels. Most of your casualties go as wounded and it seems you get around 15-20% back in late spring.

So add that to your existing manpower reserves and bringing your front line formations up to strength is relatively easy if you take care over the refit process. In the winter, if a unit starts to get below 35% TOE get it out of the line to refit, better to see some local Soviet gains than to lose a unit or have it so run down it can't be easily recovered.

And manage your AFVs with care, get the SU formations out of the front and back in the reserve or OKH, try to preserve as many tanks as you can. You will get a lot damaged, the key is not to convert this to destroyed. And a key to that is not to get your Pzrs forced to retreat

Loki, do you mean only the SUs equipped with AFVs like Stus and PzJg or also the Pioneers and Arty?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
...
Loki, do you mean only the SUs equipped with AFVs like Stus and PzJg or also the Pioneers and Arty?

aye, anything that fits the game definition of an AFV (there is a chart in the annex of the manual). So non-mot stuff take on a judgement basis, it will suffer no worse or no better than any other non-mot formation, but I'd get the AFV SU out. They will add almost nothing in combat, and your Stug production is relatively low but they are very useful under normal conditions

[Kursk1943]

Thanks! [:)]

[rob89]

ORIGINAL: loki100

Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division ...

I have some problems with this statement.

I've seen dozens of situations with a lot of infantry divisions fully supplied, unmoved, with a depot within 4-5 hexes, unable to upgrade to level 2 fort for many, many weeks (with the popup always reporting Fort 1 (0%)); despite the fact that the same depot was along green rail-line, with thousands of undistributed freight stored, and despite a lot of trucks in the pool.

It's difficult to understand ...

IMHO, the supply system and the AI logistic priority management are too opaque...

best regards

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: rob89

ORIGINAL: loki100

Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division ...

I have some problems with this statement.

I've seen dozens of situations with a lot of infantry divisions fully supplied, unmoved, with a depot within 4-5 hexes, unable to upgrade to level 2 fort for many, many weeks (with the popup always reporting Fort 1 (0%)); despite the fact that the same depot was along green rail-line, with thousands of undistributed freight stored, and despite a lot of trucks in the pool.

It's difficult to understand ...

IMHO, the supply system and the AI logistic priority management are too opaque...

best regards

that the infantry division is 'fully supplied' (and a reasonable question is whether this is the case - I rarely have units at 100%) is not the issue here, the fortification (or airfield or depot) building process needs additional supply over and above what is claimed by the units.

So you may well have reasonably supplied units, the question is do you have the excess for fort building? The other bit to bear in mind is there are constraints on where a fort will be improved from 1 to 2 (unless a FZ is present)

[rob89]

ORIGINAL: loki100

that the infantry division is 'fully supplied' (and a reasonable question is whether this is the case - I rarely have units at 100%) is not the issue here, the fortification (or airfield or depot) building process needs additional supply over and above what is claimed by the units.

So you may well have reasonably supplied units, the question is do you have the excess for fort building? The other bit to bear in mind is there are constraints on where a fort will be improved from 1 to 2 (unless a FZ is present)

I know.

But the question is : why the near depot with thousands of undistributed freight (and the possible use of trucks from the pool) don't supply the excess resources for fort building?

In a 10+ hexes or so frontline there could be some constraints, but it's impossible that all the hexes keep reporting, for many and many turns, Fort 1 (0%)...

[carlkay58]

Are the infantry divisions attached to an Assault Command? Because they can't fortify past level 1.

[GibsonPete]

"Are the infantry divisions attached to an Assault Command? Because they can't fortify past level 1."

Good call. Perhaps there are no attached construction units? Many reasons why they do not progress beyond Level 01.

[Joel Billings]

Different Fortification Levels have particular requirements and constraints: Fortification Levels 2 or 3: Must either be 1) adjacent to an enemy hex, or 2) a City/Urban/Heavy Urban terrain hex, or 3) contain a port (of any size), or 4) contain a fortified zone unit in the hex.

[GibsonPete]

Bingo. A question answered.