The Red Army Is (Not) Overpowered - A tongue in cheek aar

[Rosencrantus]

I would enjoy one but already have an StB game going against Tyronec. Being on the constant defensive makes me miss having the strategic initative in 41 [:D]. If you'd like once I have more time in a few months we can have a good game, unless another experienced Axis player takes on your challenge.

[RedJohn]

Well the offer is of course open to anyone who considers themselves "experienced". Whilst it is a pretty big disadvantage knowing the strategy beforehand, I still remain confident the Soviets are busted enough that it won't really end up mattering.

[RedJohn]

Turn 18. Orel is encircled again, and sadly the 1st Panzer division is freed. One battle in Crimea, quiet everywhere else.

[RedJohn]

Quiet turn, a few attacks by me. OOB remains roughly unchanged, 6313 men receiving reinforcements, as I dedicated most of my manpower reserve this turn to filling up units in the reserve. Deployed 2 armies to sectors that need reinforcements, and a whole slew of brigades across the front to reinforce units during blizzard.

All in all, next turn 440,000 men should appear on map.

[Beethoven1]

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

Agreed with K62, all due respect to the Axis player this game, but any experienced Axis player would be able to punish this strategy pretty easily.

People always say this, but nobody actually ever does it.

What exactly could an experienced Axis player do to punish this? Let's say in theory that the Axis player could in theory advance as far as Voronezh/Stalingrad/Krasnodar, but if they actually take those cities, then Soviets can re-take them in winter and get +6 bonus VPs for early recapture. So Axis is actually perversely incentivized to NOT take those cities even if they are totally undefended. However, in practice they would not actually be undefended, because in practice this strategy is about having a non-existent-to-light defense in the south in the early turns, not permanently having no real south defense.

Meanwhile if our experienced Axis player takes the opposite tack and tries sending Panzergruppe 1 to the center, then Soviets could start actually defending in the south by deploying even relatively meager forces to get in the way of the slow advance of the German infantry.

[s2tanker]

I've been suggesting to the developers that some sort of random disruption occur to the Soviet player in the first 2-3 turns - perhaps something akin to interdiction - reflecting the extreme confusion and panic among the Red Army command structure. Perhaps this can be an option at start so that new players don't have to deal with it. Without it, two evenly-matched players are going to see a variation of this match wherein there are no large pockets after the first turn - ever.

Another connected idea is to adjust the factory evacuations so that a player can prioritize regions to reflect the actual danger they perceive to their industry.

[K62_]

ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

ORIGINAL: Rosencrantus

Agreed with K62, all due respect to the Axis player this game, but any experienced Axis player would be able to punish this strategy pretty easily.

People always say this, but nobody actually ever does it.

What exactly could an experienced Axis player do to punish this? Let's say in theory that the Axis player could in theory advance as far as Voronezh/Stalingrad/Krasnodar, but if they actually take those cities, then Soviets can re-take them in winter and get +6 bonus VPs for early recapture. So Axis is actually perversely incentivized to NOT take those cities even if they are totally undefended. However, in practice they would not actually be undefended, because in practice this strategy is about having a non-existent-to-light defense in the south in the early turns, not permanently having no real south defense.

Meanwhile if our experienced Axis player takes the opposite tack and tries sending Panzergruppe 1 to the center, then Soviets could start actually defending in the south by deploying even relatively meager forces to get in the way of the slow advance of the German infantry.

Sorry, I don't have the time to start a new game right now but here's the math:

[font="Courier New"]
Area                            VPs     HWM     Note
====                            ===     ===     ====
Riga, Minsk, Lvov                41     411     Easy picks T1
Tallinn, Pskov, Smolensk         35     446     Conservative estimate of 5 bonus VPs
Odessa, Kiev, Kharkov,
D-town, Zaporozhe                80     526     Presumably abandoned by Soviet player
Kursk, Stalino                   32     558     Presumably first Soviet line of defense
Sevastopol, Rostov, Orel,
Voronezh                         84     642     At least some of these should fall before schedule
Tula, Ryazan, Tambov, Rzhev      64     706     Sudden victory stretch            


[/font]

I believe the correct strategy for the Axis player is not to send PG1 to the center but rather something on the lines of:
- Two infantry armies towards Sevastopol
- Some AGC infantry goes through Gomel to help AGS at Rostov
- Rest of AGC infantry plus most of AGN infantry grinds towards Rzhev
- PG1 leads southern advance
- PG2 and PG3 break into the open ground on the Orel - Ryazan direction
- PG4 is a strategic reserve

Tyronec is probably the expert on the southern strategy and may have a much better setup than what I've described above (if he's willing to share it...). If the Axis player knows where the Soviet lines will be and designs the logistic network appropriately then FBD speed should not be a huge constraint.

Also, even if Axis doesn't attain 700 VPs it's still up to the Soviets later on to match a pretty high HWM, possibly well into the 600s.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: s2tanker

I've been suggesting to the developers that some sort of random disruption occur to the Soviet player in the first 2-3 turns - perhaps something akin to interdiction - reflecting the extreme confusion and panic among the Red Army command structure. Perhaps this can be an option at start so that new players don't have to deal with it. Without it, two evenly-matched players are going to see a variation of this match wherein there are no large pockets after the first turn - ever.

Another connected idea is to adjust the factory evacuations so that a player can prioritize regions to reflect the actual danger they perceive to their industry.

It was told multiple times. If Soviet is running Axis player can forget about pockets. Maybe few divisions it is all what he get.
Industry is irrelevant unfortunately. Exception is Kharkov with tanks/airplanes (not sure if they are made there) and Leningrad. All other factories are irrelevant. Even if Soviet player lose factories that produce armaments at say turn 2! - there will be no difference in production.

[Stamb]

Also if it is correct that whole factories from a city are able to evacuate in 1 week then it is a fantasy.

[RedJohn]

- Two infantry armies towards Sevastopol
- Some AGC infantry goes through Gomel to help AGS at Rostov
- Rest of AGC infantry plus most of AGN infantry grinds towards Rzhev
- PG1 leads southern advance
- PG2 and PG3 break into the open ground on the Orel - Ryazan direction
- PG4 is a strategic reserve

Tow infantry armies to Sevastapol works for breaking it, but with solely infantry you're leaving a big gap in your lines unless you regiment.
AGC Infantry are diverted through Gomel, sure, but you're weakening a sector that's been reinforced with half/most of an entire front by the Soviets.
PG2/PG3 Breaking through to Orel, while doubtlessly possible in 41, is also inefficient as you're not repairing a dualtrack rail from Smolensk in that direction. Very risky for winter, no? Certainly even if you take Ryazan, you are absolutely not holding it as the Soviet OOB won't be 2m.
Diverting PG4 is interesting, but all it'd mean for the soviets is that as soon as they see the panzers go from that sector they can move 30% of the units to reserve and redeploy their own.

[RedJohn]

Turn 19. Practically zero attacks across the front, slight pushing at Voronezh. Dunno why, it'll be an easy +6 VP for me even if I lose it.

[RedJohn]

We form our first Guards Rifle Corps. The first of hopefully many, it will prove a devastating bludgeon in blizzard.

[RedJohn]

OOB Turn 19. I am counting down the turns until I get another free 500,000 men from papa Stalin. No doubt it will replace any losses incurred during snow.

[RedJohn]

Total losses for Barbarossa.

[RedJohn]

Here's a look at depots. As my OOB increases and the front stagnates, the supply demanded drops ever lower.

Every unit in the Red Army is Green! Except those just arriving, anyway.

[AlbertN]

I am not at the same 'level' so to say because in my Russian game I am defending the south - to play fair. And I am at 3M men at Turn8 roughly, on map.
And my supply requirement is like 10k, everything at Priority 4 and pretty much not feeling any shortage in terms of freight.

The real Russian limit is just manpower and gun production there.

[Stamb]

No. You cant say that. I refuse to believe!

[RedJohn]

Turn 20. All is quiet on the Eastern Front.

[RedJohn]

Very quiet turn, I only make one attack at the VL area. Otherwise, just waiting for blizzard. I am practically out of armies to use.

[RedJohn]

Whilst we wait for more interesting turns to come, here's a picture of the other soviet game I'm in. In this game I broke AGC's pocket turn 1, which as we all know cripples German momentum. Usually I houserule that the soviets can't break it if the Germans defend it reasonably well, but I was in the mood for highlighting how strong the Soviets can be and so did not.

Very reminiscent of my game against Beethoven. I currently have a 3.7m OOB as of turn 7.