Are VVS losses reasonable?

[Stamb]

Are there any sources (I was not able to find) where it is described how many planes each side is losing during a battle? Not for a time period. But for a battles itself.

I can not imagine that this was happening in real life, except maybe for the first few weeks.
Some examples:






Or was it?

[fritzfarlig]

What version do you play ?

[Stamb]

0.15
0.19

Same pattern was in previous patches.

[Stamb]

Sometimes when my fighters are on the edge of their range and probably with a bad supply, losses are following.

But it is super rare

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Are there any sources (I was not able to find) where it is described how many planes each side is losing during a battle? Not for a time period. But for a battles itself.

I can not imagine that this was happening in real life, except maybe for the first few weeks.

Or was it?

I say this with the understanding that reading specifically about the airwar in Russia is something on my to-do list for the future.

I am not going to complain about those numbers in 41 and even 42. However, I am seeing in the 43 AARs such as speedy's

(linked below) that the Russians are still getting slaughtered. It was I believe at Kurk 43 that they finally were able to

begin to dominate the skies over most of the Russian front. This doesn't appear to be happening though. I feel this is something that might need looking at.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in what I have just said.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932&mpage=14&key=&#5140052

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

VVS still gets obliterated by the UFO's the Axis are flying by Alien pilots with 10 limbs. Loss ratio is beginning to get better on land which is a good sign. Applying pressure where I can as much as I can. Virtually impossible to attempt an encirclement as Loki keeps his Armoured units in reserve to thwart any attempt at that.

If there's anything specific readers want to ask/see let me know[:)]

[Speedysteve]

In the words of Hudson from 'Aliens'..."if you like that you're gunna love this". Last turn against Loki's UFO's:

[AlbertN]

The VVS was getting trashed in Russia and even later on had problems.
When the VVS dominated the skies it was in virtue of sheer numbers and Luftwaffe being in the West.

[Beethoven1]

It may or may not be reasonable, but it is not new. It was the same thing in previous patches.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

The VVS was getting trashed in Russia and even later on had problems.
When the VVS dominated the skies it was in virtue of sheer numbers and Luftwaffe being in the West.

no it was in virtue of producing fighters that were a very good fit to their doctrine and finally getting control over their pilot training

by the end the Axis couldn't deal with the Yak-3

Here I'm winning air battles quite simply as I squeeze my fighter groups into very small sectors, I'm ruthless about flipping them to rest if they pick up fatigue or their morale dips and they go to the reserve if their experience dips. So I cede a whole chunk of the front to the VVS, but when I engage I tend to do with substantial numbers

[Stamb]

My examples are with rested pilots from both sides. There was heavy rain for multiple turns. And now it is cold in the air.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

My examples are with rested pilots from both sides. There was heavy rain for multiple turns. And now it is cold in the air.

I can't see anything wrong in your examples. In the end experience/skill trumps almost every other variable and the LW in those reports are in the high 90s. Look up QBall's old 'friday night follies' in the WiTW forum where he created odd matches to test out ideas, with a big enough skill gap biplanes were shooting down jet fighters.

I know some people make a case that you can build a small elite within the VVS over 1941 and 1942. I'm not convinced, in the end its a tool of attrition at that phase, you can't not contest air control but the LW will win every match. Just they can't replace that pool of 1941 pilots.

[Jango32]

Your best bet would *probably* be Bergstrom's Black Cross, Red Star volume I which I have and started going through it. However, a great deal of the information inside is not sourced, and there were some things in the book that are wrong (including sourced stuff). I don't know enough about Christer to be sure that he was always working with direct archive material, like Jentz was when he (and sometimes with a team of people) published his various works on German AFVs during the war.

[Speedysteve]

Agreed. I don't see it as being a problem per se since the NM difference and pilot skill level difference is basically as marked in 1943 as it is in 1941....it only in 1944 the NM begins to 'close' and Russians get better planes. It's only really now (IMO) I'm starting to get a better fighter (LA-5FN). I still do see (IMO) crazy loss ratios though and I believe it is known (without making too sweeping a statement) that extremes can and do happen too often. Like I remember posting when Loki and my game started....I sent a bombing run to Ploesti...all 156 bombers were wiped out...ALL....there's no battle in history (over 150 planes) where I know of every single plane being wiped out.....do I think the air model is perfect = far from it. Do I think it's too bloody at times = absolutely BUT do I think loss ratios between Axis and SU should be anything what they are now in 41, 42 and 43 = probably no.

My 2p

[Great_Ajax]

The Luftwaffe dominated the skies over Kursk WHEN they had enough fuel, planes and pilots to do so. Lack of fuel especially prevented the Luftwaffe from maintaining air dominance.

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Are there any sources (I was not able to find) where it is described how many planes each side is losing during a battle? Not for a time period. But for a battles itself.

I can not imagine that this was happening in real life, except maybe for the first few weeks.

Or was it?

I say this with the understanding that reading specifically about the airwar in Russia is something on my to-do list for the future.

I am not going to complain about those numbers in 41 and even 42. However, I am seeing in the 43 AARs such as speedy's

(linked below) that the Russians are still getting slaughtered. It was I believe at Kurk 43 that they finally were able to

begin to dominate the skies over most of the Russian front. This doesn't appear to be happening though. I feel this is something that might need looking at.

Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in what I have just said.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4992932&mpage=14&key=�

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

VVS still gets obliterated by the UFO's the Axis are flying by Alien pilots with 10 limbs. Loss ratio is beginning to get better on land which is a good sign. Applying pressure where I can as much as I can. Virtually impossible to attempt an encirclement as Loki keeps his Armoured units in reserve to thwart any attempt at that.

If there's anything specific readers want to ask/see let me know[:)]

[DesertedFox]

Bear in mind I have just quickly looked for some data and haven't read the book yet.

From.

War over the Steppes: The air campaigns on the Eastern Front 1941–45
E. R. Hooton

It has an extensive Bibliography.

From 5 to 31 July Greim lost 229 aircraft, while Seidemann lost 192, a total of 421. In the same period 16th VA lost 439 aircraft, 2nd VA 372 and 17th VA 244, a total of 1,055, or a third of their strength – figures which reflect the greater experience of Luftwaffe airmen. But this quality was rapidly being eroded – the Stuka arm lost eight Ritterkreuz-holders during July while the Jagdwaffe’s emphasis upon Experten meant its effectiveness declined because the ‘Young Hares’ lacked their experience. The Russians suffered the same problem, with Krasovskii’s Shturmovik regiments losing 209 aircraft in July – the average ‘Ilyusha’ pilot was lasting just six sorties (or 13 hours). By comparison, the average fighter pilot lasted 15 sorties (11.5 hours) and bomber pilots 62 sorties (almost 70 hours).

The Germans’ experience told, and the two air armies lost 59 aircraft – 1st GvIAK had 25 fighters destroyed and 19 pilots killed or captured, while Deichmann lost ten aeroplanes. He flew another 1,000 sorties on the second day, but fuel shortages cut this to around 700 on 14 July.

The Germans also withdrew large quantities of material, some flown out in more than 3,000 transport sorties between 21 July and 17 August, when Kutozov was ended because the Germans had occupied the Hagenstellung. During the offensive the Russians flew 60,995 sorties, dropped 15,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 1,104 aircraft, while Deichmann’s men had flown 37,421 sorties, dropped more than 20,000 tonnes of bombs and lost 199 combat aircraft.

Overall fighter strength in the East dropped to 330 by 1 September and 390 by 1 January 1944, as the VVS grew in strength and quality.

The Kiev offensive caught Manstein off guard, for he believed the greater threat would come from the south where, on 23 October, Khryukin with 900 aircraft supported an attack upon Kleist’s left that by the end of the month had isolated the Crimea. The scale of Russian activity may be gauged from the fact Goryunov flew 10,165 sorties and dropped 975 tonnes of bombs during October while Khryukin flew 12,380 sorties. The Russians continued to be plagued by inexperienced pilots, however – a major cause of the 47 fighters lost by General-maior Aleksandr Outin’s 7th IAK, which amounted to 65 per cent of Goryunov’s total losses.

It would appear losses are running somewhat historically with a ratio that swings from 2 to 1 up to 6 to 1 in these selected main battlefronts.

Doesn't appear to have tables comparing losses but it does have fuel consumption for the respective airforces in 43.

Russia 6,170,669 Tonnes

Luftwaffe 1,825,000 Tonnes

[DesertedFox]

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The Luftwaffe dominated the skies over Kursk WHEN they had enough fuel, planes and pilots to do so. Lack of fuel especially prevented the Luftwaffe from maintaining air dominance.

I remember reading something like this years ago. Fuel was a major issue and one of the culprits was the increased partisan

activity specifically behind the German Kursk front.

[Stamb]

From wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk:

According to the historian Christer Bergström, Soviet Air Forces losses during the German offensive amounted to 677 aircraft on the northern flank and 439 on the southern flank. Total casualties are uncertain. Bergström's research indicates total Soviet air losses between 12 July and 18 August, during the German offensive and the Operation Kutuzov counteroffensive, were 1,104 aircraft

Frieser reports Luftwaffe losses at 524 aircraft, with 159 lost during the German offensive, 218 destroyed during Operation Kutuzov and 147 lost during Operation Polkovodets Rumyantsev.[318] In reviewing the reports of the quartermaster of the Luftwaffe, Bergström presents different figures. Between 5 and 31 July, Bergström reports 681 aircraft lost or damaged (335 for Fliegerkorps VIII and 346 for Luftflotte 6) with 420 being written off (192 from Fliegerkorps VIII and 229 from Luftflotte 6)

its closer to 1:1 and not 1:10-20 like in game

[DesertedFox]

Air losses are tricky to get correct figures. Often depends on who you believe the most.

example from the same source above.

The first Russian operation by all the air armies around the Kursk Salient struck 17 airfields during 6–8 May, with planning confined to a small group to achieve surprise. The aim was to catch aircraft while they were being serviced, and air army commanders were notified only 24 hours before D-Day, with some regimental commanders briefed only four hours before take-off. The three-day offensive involved 1,392 sorties, with formations streaming through narrow sectors under radio silence to surprise and saturate the defences. The operation claimed 506 aircraft, 373 on the ground, for the loss of 122, but German losses were actually five aircraft destroyed and 20 damaged

Also, your example is for a period of 6 days only.

From.

Krivosheev, G. I. (1997). Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses. Greenhill. pp. 255, 258, 259.

Soviet Union: Total losses were 17,900 bombers, 23,600 ground attacker, 46,800 fighter aircraft, and 18,100 training, transport and other aircraft; an overall loss of over 106,400 aircraft; 46,100 in combat and 60,300 non-combat. Of which, 18,300 Lend-Lease aircraft were lost. Grigori F. Krivosheev states: "A high percentage of combat aircraft were lost in relation to the number available on 22 June 1941: 442% (total losses) or 216% (combat losses). In the air force over a half of losses were non-combat losses."

Ellis, John (1993). World War II - A statistical survey. Facts on File. p. 258.

Germany produced 119,907 aircraft of all types, including bomber, transport, reconnaissance, gliders, training, seaplanes and flying boats. Most of them were either destroyed, damaged, captured or sold.[2] Estimated total number of destroyed and damaged for the war totaled 76,875 aircraft, of which 40,000 were total losses and the remainder significantly damaged. By type, losses totaled 21,452 fighters, 12,037 bombers, 15,428 trainers, 10,221 twin-engine fighters, 5,548 ground attack, 6,733 reconnaissance, and 6,141 transports

German losses are of course across all fronts.

This link shows the combat losses across the various fronts for Germany.

https://olga--tonina-narod-ru.translate.goog/maxim-belkin-itogi/itogi_11.htm?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

[Jango32]

Christopher Lawrence places Luftwaffe losses at 193 for the period 5th of July to 15th of July (Operation Citadel) and VVS losses in the same period at 992. Niklas Zetterling puts German losses very similar to Christopher's.

[Lovenought]

To be fair, as the player on the other side (and with the proviso that I haven't personally seen how it is mid/late war yet), I am happy with those first two results. 5 out of 42 is over 10% losses for the Luftwaffe, and 10 out of 45 is almost a quarter. I figure that if i'm killing a notable % of the pilots in each sector each turn, and if I can keep that up every few turns, surely that'll get somewhere over months. My opponent has already told me they are out of trained pilots (although they have also lost a lot of bombers/recon to flak/ops/unescorted interceptions).

And it's especially good results against a perfectly rested Luftwaffe. I had noticed his losses climbing before as sheer fatigue took hold of his pilots.