Turn 1 Axis Panzer Group Combat Results

[hossjww30]

I've played War in the East 1 for years. Loved it. Just started playing this one.

On turn one, I attacked the CV 7 Soviet tank division with a Panzer division and a mechanized infantry division.

The results were almost all my tanks were destroyed in the battle! I've had several other attacks in turn 1 with other panzer divisions with almost no losses. I don't understand. I never saw anything like this in WitE1. Also all the elements in the division have fatigue levels in the 90's.

Also, I've had over 400 airplane losses on turn 1 and the turn is only half over. This seems way too high. Most of the losses are operational.

[hossjww30]

This game is garbage. None of this was caught in playtesting before release? How long has this game been out now? I've been playing it for a few hours and already realize the combat results are garbage.

In the first week of the campaign 4,990 Russian aircraft were claimed destroyed for the loss of 179 German machines. The biggest battles of the war to date took place as the German spearheads approached Minsk on 30 June. Large formations of unescorted Russian bombers were thrown in, one German unit alone (JG 91) claiming 114 of these.

[hossjww30]

They basically charged people $79 to add roads (which have almost no affect on the game), screw up the air management system and add depots. Yes that's what I want to do - spend hours building depots and managing supplies.

[ShaggyHiK]

Your opinion is really very important, I suggest you go play more casual games like europa4 where you don't need to build warehouses!

[Stamb]

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.

[Stamb]

I was not playing wite 1 but I read few AARs and watch few videos. Ideal mix would be something in between wite 1 where panzers are unstoppable force and wite 2 where they are very weak

[Gazzas]

ORIGINAL: Stamb

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.

[Stamb]

This is what I am also trying to bring up. How motorized division can be more useful than a panzer one? If it was a case IRL then there would be no panzers at all. Why do Germans produce panzers when it is much cheaper to produce armor vehicles!

[AlbertN]

I believe it has been already underlined repeatedly how the Panzer divisions are brittle.

I do not know if it is due to the combat engine - since as a player I am clueless, I know I can attack, things shoots at thing, but is there maneuvering or other tactical play or it's just 'things get closer, things get in range, things shoot, things get closer, new range check, more things can shoot, rinse repeat).

Plus some subject computing of how effective (or not) sloping may have been aiding Soviet armour, forgetting then other variables such as metal quality and the like. But hey - that to me is already excess of data.

I do fully agree the 'game feel' is wrong, which is due to 'panzer = frail + hard to replace + limited in production' vs how the Infantry of the motorized divisions is simply easier to refit and repair upfront and thus they keep the punch while a panzer division could win some battles but then remains only in its motorized infantry component and it's maimed.

[ImperatorAugustus]

This is just a theory but I assume the problem has to do with the size/targeting. German AFVs are inferior in game at the start of Barb. Soviet experience is low, but with shear volume of fire they are landing hits. I'd suggest that tanks be much more affected by experience. Most soviet tanks crews had less than 2 hours inside their t34 at all. There is a report of a Pz3 firing 56 shots into a T34 and not destroying it. Which is both a testament to technological difference and the ineptitude of soviet tank crews.

Historically though the most effective German weapons against the T34 and KV1 early in the war were Flak 88s, Pioneers, Anti tank teams, and the Lefh 105 once the HEAT shell was made.

[Stamb]

This is a complex problem. IRL there was not enough training as you mentioned. A lot of tanks were not ready. There was not enough fuel/ammo. While in game Soviets have literally 0 problems with supplies/ammo/fuel. They can actually use supply priority 4 to store more than 100% of ammo which leads to an additional shots during a battle.

[AlbertN]

Another massive difference was that German panzer crews knew how to perform maitenance to their tanks. Soviet crews not.
So reliability here may not even reflect that.

A panzer that had a breakdown that did not required some heavy machinery intervention could be fixed by its crew.
Soviet crews were clueless. And pretty much had to wait technicians ...

That is broadly and widely documented in the Battle of Dubno but it came across the whole front and through '41 and '42 (I am ignorant of Soviet crew preparation for these matters in '43).

[Stamb]

Actually I was paying attention what happens with my damaged panzers, it was still `41 back then, and maybe few tanks are repaired if I am not moving per turn. I would expect that number to be higher. As they were not damaged during battles, just from moving.

[carlkay58]

hoss - you picked a fight with the best Soviet Tank Division at the start of the war. It was fully equipped with T34s and KV1s. It was experienced and fully trained. In an actual battle account in early July that division was able to totally trash two panzer divisions who were unable to damage the Soviet tanks. When the 25 KV1s ran out of ammo, they were able to destroy another 15 to 20 Axis tanks by RUNNING THEM OVER!

The reality at the start of the war was that the German armor was a collection of out-dated equipment that was not up to the caliber of the Soviet T34 and KV1. The Germans were suffering from Victory Disease - what they had and fielded were able to defeat everyone else so why change it?

A large majority of the 41 Axis tank losses in the game are from disrupted elements which represents break downs and worn out equipment. Many of these can come back eventually with the rest being scrapped for parts. Infantry, on the other hand, were very effective against Soviet armor at this time because of the lack of Soviet training in combined arms tactics. A Soviet Tank division had very few, if any, infantry with it. Tanks did not have the visibility to counter infantry without supporting infantry. Even mechanized infantry, once dismounted, is better against the Soviet tanks in 41 than the under gunned, under armored German tanks.

[Jango32]

The same result happens even when you attack tank divisions equipped with nothing more than BTs and T-26s in terms of AFVs though.

[Lovenought]

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. Losing 400 Axis planes on turn one is uncommonly high. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

[Stamb]

carlkay58
What you write makes sense. And I totally agree that t34 and especially kv are much better tanks than a German one in 41.
But how it is possible to explain such poor performance vs Soviet infantry, especially in defense?

[DarkHorse2]

ORIGINAL: Gazzas

ORIGINAL: Stamb

You can read any AAR in wite 2. `41 panzers are super bad against Soviet armor/mech units. And a lot of people complain about it. Right now you have to attack with motorized divisions and use panzers to flip hexes.

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.

This is what I want to understand. Why are Motorized Div's so powerful? They certainly could not have been in real life or LSSAH, Das Reich, and Totenkopf would never have been elevated to Pz divs.

What weapons do the Motorized divisions have that are so powerful that they can take on more tanks than a Panzer Div.

You are correct and there are some balancing issues where Panzer Divs appear overly fragile and Motorized seem OP and able to deal with the early Soviet AFVs without risk of huge panzer losses.

Hopefully they will eventually get addressed somehow.

[Stamb]

ORIGINAL: Lovenought
...
The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

I have only few pilots with 99 XP . But I agree. Fighters feel overpowered while level bombers are almost useless in GS, and tactical bombers suffer huge flak losses. 1/4 of attacking planes are lost due to a flak in a single battle. But this is another story.

[DarkHorse2]

ORIGINAL: Lovenought

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. Losing 400 Axis planes on turn one is uncommonly high. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

I think the aircraft claim is more interesting. I have no idea how you could lose 400 Axis planes on turn one. What exactly were you doing? Usually I would expect that to be tons of unescorted bombers in raids, but he said it was mostly operational losses. I thought it took multiple turns to wrack up huge fatigue even if you try to fly them at 100% of their possible flight hours, but maybe that's wrong.

Usually the Soviets do, in fact, take extremely vast losses on Day 1 (about 4,000 destroyed on the ground in my MP game) and then they continue taking extremely high losses until the very late war. I commonly see 10 or 20 to 1 losses in ground support missions, and unescorted bombers doing strategic bombing are usually totally wiped out if German fighters intercept them.

The Axis pilots climb to 99 XP and then become Aryan supermen playing Ace Combat against the VVS. It's the one area right now where the Axis feel overpowered.

It is possible to lose 400 Axis AC 1st turn, but you have to work at it and fly a lot of unescorted missions.

Whatever Axis pilots that climb to 99 XP, I want in on that. But I haven't seen that either. OPS/Flak losses seem to keep that from really happening. If it does happen, it is the exception and not the rule. [;)]