Some faults in SPWAW and some anecdotes about american heroism!

Nemesis · Post by **Nemesis** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:02 pm

Off-topic, but.... Is there any information regarding air-combat between Allied units and Soviet units? I mean, it did happen in the later parts of the war. I remember reading on these forums about the top Soviet ace, who was escorting damaged B-17, when he was attacked by P-51's. is the are additional info? Any books on the subject?

gators · Post by **gators** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:30 pm

Did anyone inform Jacques that his anecdote about destroyed Crusader tanks wouldn't have a lot to do with US troops. I also believe the Wittman episode he alludes to involved British troops. Just obfuscating the original issue with a fact or two.

gators · Post by **gators** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 1:32 pm

On the subject of US accomplishments in WWI maybe a mention of Alvin York would be germane to the subject of American heroes.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 9:02 pm

Originally posted by freyburg:
Did anyone inform Jacques that his anecdote about destroyed Crusader tanks wouldn't have a lot to do with US troops. I also believe the Wittman episode he alludes to involved British troops. Just obfuscating the original issue with a fact or two.

Heh, Freyburg, y'know what they say:

Never let facts obscure a good story

Jaques Rico · Post by **Jaques Rico** » Wed Jul 11, 2001 11:37 pm

I doubt that anyone who read Greg McCarthys and M10Bobs posts can honestly argue my point. They are living examples of my thesis and obviously born to countercaricature themselves.
There are some other very good examples, but I think its enough for now.

I had fun and I hope some others had too.

Maybe one last anecdote from a NATO-exercise:

60 Americans and 4 M1A1 tanks stood against a M113 and 12 german soldiers. The americans were down in a valley in cover. As the germans found the americans the commander instructed his 12 foot soldiers to go around them and take them from the rear. He used his M113 to show himselve sometimes shortly on the left side of the small mountain, sometimes on the right side, but never in the same position twice. Then he fired some shots and went back into cover. The americans werent fast enough to hit him. In the meantime the 12 soldiers came into the backs of the americans. They destroyed the tanks with attached mines and shot the american foot soldiers. It was then over in minutes. The americans looked very surprised.

They used laser pointers to confirm the simulated kills. The story was told to me by my friend Korgel, who was one of the german foot soldiers. He said they really had fun in that exercise.

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Ok, enough with this thread.

Greetings
JR

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:32 am

But if you truely compare the aces on both sides there are some discrepancies. For example the best american fighter pilot has 48 kills, the best german 352. The 10 best german fighter pilots shot down 2588 allied machines. What do you think is the number for the 10 best american pilots?

I wondered about this discrepancy for awhile and then I did some additional reading. (I suggest you consider that as well). You really need to look at number of sorties flown per pilot. German pilots frequently flew over their own territory. As a result, they were often able to return to their units in very short period of time and continue to fly. US pilots frequently flew over enemy territory. Once shot down, they often did not return to their units due to subsequent capture/death after landing. (This assumes either pilot survived being shot-down!)

Also, as already stated, US pilots used a rotation system. They flew XX number of sorties (actual number varied throughout the war)and then were pulled back and sent home or used as instructors. German pilots were there for the duration.

There is also some evidence that the German kill tallies might have been exaggerated. I read someplace that one German Ace on the eastern front returned from a sortie and claimed several Russian kills. Problem was, his ground crew discovered that he had not fired a shot! As a general rule, German "kills" were on the honor system. Whatever they claimed, they got credit for. US pilots only got "kills" if the enemy aircraft was shown going down on the gun camera. As a result it was much harder for US pilots to get credit for kills.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:44 am

Quoting Jaques himself, who started this topic: "Ok, enough with this thread.

"

I would agree. And so it shall be done.

Wild Bill