Walter Model takes Tula

[goldenlion]

Hi I love WitE2, thanks to all for developing/making this game. Loved WitE and WitW too.

I am playing grand campaign as Axis, and just did a hasty attack on Tula with Model's Motorized Corp of 3 Pz Group/Army Group Center on turn 13 with game version 1.02.20_Beta, and it momentarily showed "forces scouted" with ratio 1.1:1, but then as it resolved, it turned into a rout, with me being able to take Tula on this 1.1:1 CV ratio.

Also the combat losses at a glance for the soviets looks funny. They had no tanks in the battle, but lost 32? and 177 guns in the battle but they lost 277? And they had 9k men but lost 12k?

Screenshot linked.

Is this a bug or something I am missing?
https://ibb.co/BfY3PBt

[goldenlion]

Here is a direct embedded screenshot too.

I haven't seen this kind of CV ratio paired with the routed result before.

[Joel Billings]

This kind of thing can happen in heavy urban/urban/port "high intensity" combat. Basically the unit takes so many damaged and destroyed elements that it becomes depleted and routs. If it routs, it doesn't matter how bad the odds are. The hex is lost if there are no combat units left in the hex at the end of the combat. Although it might not change the outcome in this case, we are working on adjusting high intensity combat and it might reduce the losses in this case so that the unit might not have become depleted.

As for the 32 tanks, is it possible that there was a depleted unit in the hex (either attached to a unit in the hex or in a routed unit in the hex)? Depleted/routed units in the hex don't participate in the combat, but can suffer losses from retreat attrition if the battle is lost. You'll often see flak guns attached to a city, that are lost when the city hex is lost, being counted in the losses but not in the number of guns that took part in the battle.

[goldenlion]

Thanks Joel.

Yes the Soviet 4th Anti-tank Brigade was also stacked in the hex, so it could explain the tank losses.

And your explanation makes theoretical sense to me. An attack that fails to reach the 2:1 retreat threshold can still cause a unit to rout if their losses are too heavy.

The curious thing that still confuses me:

This battle was billed by the system as a reconnaissance in force initially. I did see, momentarily, "Defending forces were scouted" with 1.1:1 CV ratio.

This is supported by my attacking forces' relative low losses in a heavy urban environment. Only after a few seconds did I see things migrating, and then the factories got damaged and turned red, then all of a sudden the hex was mine and the result changed to "routed"!

How did I inflict such heavy damage with a reconnaissance in force, to the tune of 324 men lost to their 12k men, for a scouting conflict?
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Overall, not a big deal. I am not complaining that I am gifted a major Soviet resource center!
Just bringing attention to it if it seems off and/or trying to learn of any nuanced rules if I'm not understanding.

I will go with the story that Ivan Boldin panicked at the sight of three motorized divisions, one SS, entering Tula, causing major chaos, heavy losses and PoWs.

[jubjub]

The 12k losses are caused by AA or construction units that surrendered when you took the city.

[goldenlion]

The 12k losses are caused by AA or construction units that surrendered when you took the city.

Thanks Juju for your input.
Directly attached units to the location was my first suspect as well. To look into it in more detail, I looked at the ground losses, and the bulk of their losses were rifle squads which aren't a component of AA or construction units.

The losses in men do seem to be coming from the 275th rifle division.

[Stamb]

Screenshot from 2022-03-13 18-45-15.png (71.73 KiB) Viewed 327 times

here we can see that 11079 Soviets were lost during retreat. I think that it is people from division and AT brigade.
here is a big thread with more examples
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=377686

But Joel told that such unexpected behavior will be fixed in the next patches. So hopefully we will not see such results any more.

[goldenlion]

Screenshot from 2022-03-13 18-45-15.png

here we can see that 11079 Soviets were lost during retreat. I think that it is people from division and AT brigade.
here is a big thread with more examples
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 6&t=377686

But Joel told that such unexpected behavior will be fixed in the next patches. So hopefully we will not see such results any more.

Good enough for me!

Weird stuff happens in real life too...
So I'm going to go ahead and enjoy my occupation of Tula.

[Joel Billings]

There are two things going on here. First, the large losses were likely the result of the unit taking so many losses it became depleted (less than 10% of the combat elements are ready). This cause an automatic rout. With a low morale Soviet RD in 1941, a rout containing mostly damaged elements quickly becomes a very bad retreat with the damaged elements being destroyed. The changes being made brings down the intensity of these high intensity battles in urban/heavy urban/ports. In this case it might prevent the unit from becoming depleted and routing, in which case it would still hold the hex and wouldn't suffer the retreat. Now I can say for sure what would happen in this case with the new version. It's possible the division was already so badly damaged that it was going to become depleted in any case given this attack. I am seeing though with the changes coming that against non-isolated units in urban it's harder to take them out by depleting them.

Now as for the result where more men and AFVs are listed as lost than are actually in the battle, the most common reasons for this when the hex is lost are:

1) Units attached to the city - These can lose men and equipment but are not listed as participating in the battle.
2) HQ units in the hex - HQ personnel, and support units in the HQ that don't commit to the battle, can take retreat losses even though they aren't listed as participating.
3) Routed or depleted units that are in the hex - These units don't list as participating but can take retreat losses.