Randomised technology tree feels punitive

[StormingKiwi]

I think instead of completely removing/blocking off certain research in randomized research, instead, perhaps it would be better to just give those research projects a 5x cost instead... so you *would* have access to it, but it would be much better to try stealing it/salvaging it instead. That way you can have the game forcing you to try different pathways, but without *totally* blocking you off randomly.

That's not the problem - the problem is a hidden prerequisite somewhere else unintuitive.

[SgtBootStrap]

Well Damn. I had not tried the "Random" Tech Tree Option but one assumed that "Random" Tech meant the placement of Techs on the Tree itself, not the total removal of some of the Tech options....????

Good to know though. No way in hell I will take a chance on losing out on a Tech, or hope to Steal/Reverse Engineer a Specific Tech...

I think its meant as more of a way to make tech trading and reverse engineering tech more viable and immersive for those that want to play that way. Thats why its an option.

Roger that. Just for LOL's, here are some synonyms for "random..."

accidental, aimless, arbitrary, incidental, indiscriminate, irregular, odd, unplanned, by-the-way, casual, contingent, desultory, driftless, fluky, fortuitous, hit-or-miss, objectless, purposeless

Take your pick.

[SirHoraceHarkness]

Roger that. Just for LOL's, here are some synonyms for "random..."

accidental, aimless, arbitrary, incidental, indiscriminate, irregular, odd, unplanned, by-the-way, casual, contingent, desultory, driftless, fluky, fortuitous, hit-or-miss, objectless, purposeless

Take your pick.

To be fair I'm sure the mechanic will get refined with enough comprehensive feedback. That or a modder will put out their take on how it should work since they are making the game mod friendly even to the point of possibly not obfuscating the code for core engine access. This is the DW1 evolution all over again. It started as a base game then over time refined existing mechanics and added in new ones. We basically got all the core aspects of all those years of development with the release and now it will be time for refinement and future additions. Give it a month or two and the game will polish up quite nicely. For me its working fine but I haven't really pushed the limits of adding in lots of empires or playing on the largest map.

[baldamundo]

Well Damn. I had not tried the "Random" Tech Tree Option but one assumed that "Random" Tech meant the placement of Techs on the Tree itself, not the total removal of some of the Tech options....????

Good to know though. No way in hell I will take a chance on losing out on a Tech, or hope to Steal/Reverse Engineer a Specific Tech...

I think its meant as more of a way to make tech trading and reverse engineering tech more viable and immersive for those that want to play that way. Thats why its an option.

Are you sure tech trading works for stuff you're locked out of by the tree? It might just be that the other empires are really behind on tech, but I can't seem to trade with them for the stuff I seem to be locked out of, or for racial techs.

[Threatx]

I ended up dropping the random tech it can hamper games massively missing entire tech paths can really slow you down also I'm not sure if the AI gets random tech so it might destroy there progress as well so opted that everyone has a fair chance instead.

[FirstPappy]

I ended up dropping the random tech it can hamper games massively missing entire tech paths can really slow you down also I'm not sure if the AI gets random tech so it might destroy there progress as well so opted that everyone has a fair chance instead.

Just read this thread and found out why I reached a dead end. I'm doing the same as you especially since I play with tech trading OFF.

[MatBailie]

I understand the potential appeal of randomised technology, but never progressing beyond basic mining feels needlessly punitive. Perhaps all technologies should at least be allowed progress a step or two?

I expect this will be reviewed in time. The concept is fun, though I dislike the way it currently manifests (such as your limit to the first level of mining only).

I honestly think the defaults should be to Not randomise the tech tree; if nothing else it helps learn the game, and the learning curve in DW is already pretty steep. (Same goes for hiding techs, I don't see how that helps new players, though I see it's merit for advanced players when random tech tree is turned on.)

[BTAxis]

Personally I don't experience being locked out of certain tech paths as punitive, even if it happens early on. I suppose that's because I used to play Sword of the Stars a lot, a game that also does this kind of thing to you. I prefer to think that it partially determines how I'm going to go about winning the game.

That being said I do think there are improvements that could be made. Per-race link probabilities would be a good start.

[Lymark]

I had to start over from my 20+ hours save, because I was stuck with tier 1 government tech while I was already investing in tier 4 stuff. I had over 50% corruption across my colonies and there was nothing I could do about it(none of the factions had it either). Couldn't think of a more game-breaking 'bug' than this.

[DeltaV112]

Personally I don't experience being locked out of certain tech paths as punitive, even if it happens early on. I suppose that's because I used to play Sword of the Stars a lot, a game that also does this kind of thing to you. I prefer to think that it partially determines how I'm going to go about winning the game.

That being said I do think there are improvements that could be made. Per-race link probabilities would be a good start.

I think that the way the tech tree is structured makes it too punitive. Losing access to things like more advanced versions of certain weapons is fine, because you're likely to get at least some high-tier weapons, but losing access to say high-tier hyperdrives, shields/armor, or reactors can be crippling(I think that mining tech actually doesn't matter that much). This impacts narrow trees much more than broad ones, because the tech chances are pretty flat across categories.

I think in balance terms either more tech needs to be made core, or there needs to be a restructuring of the tech tree so that there's more cross-links and links from core tech, and probably a mix of both. It might be worth considering a mechanic where certain tech has random links leading to it but is core, ensuring that at least one link to a core tech will always exist. Alternately, having a reliable peacetime mechanic to get access to other races tech paths would make things less potentially crushing, as long as you can't end up in a scenario where you max out with bad armor/shield/speed and they get much higher level tech things aren't so much an issue.

[Chris21wen]

Currently don't have the game but based on my play of DW1 (and many other 4x games) here's what I always invisaged happening. Given that in the game different races have AI tendancies to certain techs, lets say projectile weapons, you can use these as the basis for the tech tree.

The whole of the projectile weapons would be available to any race using it. Other weapons would either be restricted to a certain level AND cost much more to research, getting near impossible at the highest level unless it's stolen (see below). I'd never thought of randomising as in DW2 but that could also be included but still cost more in research etc.

I picked projectile weapons as an example because it's currently the modern weapon in real life. Not all rifles for instance use the same specs, some have longer range, bigger caliber, size etc. Therefore for every race with a preference for rail tech some small variations in the spec used should be used but based on an overall template. For insatnce the rail gun could have a combined size(7) + damage(6) of 13. Varying either reduces the other so if size is from 6-8, damage would be 7-5. You could do this with Range+speed etc. You could also add random improvement to the tech but again keeping withing the template. This should be relatively easy to implement not so below.

Stealing research is ridiculusly easy in DW1, don't know how easy in is in DW2 but even if you do steal a tech that does not mean you have the ability to build it or even understand it without further research. Limiting what can be stolen to stuff you can build makes no sense however, so you could make it a tiered process in that you know it exists (though battle or theft), you now the rough specs (Oocch that hurt or again theft), you build a prototype (research), you biuild the whole thing (research). They all could be randomised based on your cuurent tech levels and preferences.

[Chris21wen]

I forgot to add salvage should also be treated in a similar way as stolen research minus the stolen bit and reducing the time on the other steps.

[rxnnxs]

Without random tech its even harder, but in general it is hard to know what to research to get the tech that one aims to have.

For newbies its double bad, we all have to play through the whole tech tree to know what is where, if not randomized.

But on the other hand it is nice not to know what will be possible later on.

But how could we know then what could be possible if we research in a special direction?
We sit on a pc but should rely on a good memory or hand written charts or the manual and alt tab between them?
I can not remember later on that assault pods are linked to ship drives.
So maybe a ingame wiki could describe every tech and where it lies in the techtree. Even if it is on random and swirched off should it be mentioned there.

But this would also not help the problem of the too great gap when some techs are not researchable.
I also would like to have a third option.
Random off
random on and
Full techtree with standard tech-stage (adapted to every race) plus/minus random amount

Or saying it different
Techstage = (race modifier)(isalwaysresearchable)+(rand(-2 to +2))

[Chris21wen]

Can't say if I'm a fan as not yet played it but I'm a little sceptical, not because it restricts your ability to research something but it might, as I said above, prevent you from being able to research the whole of a given branch, e.g. projectial weapons.

As to being able to see the whole tree, no I don't think you should. The next level, maybe two levels should only be revelled on discovery of the current level. In real life you've got no idea what is going to be in 5 years time let alone 100 years. You can aim bit that does not mean you succeed. This of cause only works once, as once you've played it you know what to epect. This hindsight is the disadvantage of playing any game, historical or otherwise.

[rxnnxs]

Can't say if I'm a fan as not yet played it but I'm a little sceptical, not because it restricts your ability to research something but it might, as I said above, prevent you from being able to research the whole of a given branch, e.g. projectial weapons.

As to being able to see the whole tree, no I don't think you should. The next level, maybe two levels should only be revelled on discovery of the current level. In real life you've got no idea what is going to be in 5 years time let alone 100 years. You can aim bit that does not mean you succeed. This of cause only works once, as once you've played it you know what to epect. This hindsight is the disadvantage of playing any game, historical or otherwise.

Good idea to see two techs ahead.
And when it is shown it is not sure that you can research it successfully.
It could be shown like in dw1 with annotatiins who can and who not

[fruitgnome]

I didn't read all. I found this topic because I searched for how random research work. Now I know it. But I have one question has the ai (other empires in my game) also random research paths or only me? As I wrote this I thought on the game editor and testet it by myself it's also random for ai empires. Now I find this random research path concept interesting, but I suggest to use random research paths with all projects visible selected and not only the next ones.