Strength of DEI

[IanShaw]

I played 6 games (Allies vs AI Axis, Historical balance) with the original release of WPP, and in all 6 cases the DEI fell very quickly. Could be argued a bit too quickly, but no matter. I then upgraded to Zero-Five and in all 3 games I played the DEI survived. The Japanese landed at Surabaya, slowly made their way across to Batavia, but at no stage did they land in Sumatra (which is what they did historically?). Given the paramount importance of the Batavia hex, I withdrew otherwise unoccupied Dutch forces to that hex and created a full corps, and although in 2 of the 3 games the Japanese attacked at low odds, they soon gave up. I did nothing else to bolster the defence (de Ruyter CL immediately withdrew to Ceylon, no US or UK intervention). Eventually in late 1942 the Australians landed unopposed at Surabaya and that was the end of the Axis on Java. Without the DEI oil (the Japanese having taken just the Northern Borneo oil) the IJN seemed to spend most of the game in port.
Furthermore the DEI AF seems too strong - 20 SPs? Most of the other at-start Allied AFs are down at about 5. In one game it got 4 hits on the Yamato, in my most recent one it sank the Haruna which was cruising off Batavia.
Perhaps I should increase the play balance, but as it stands it appears that the DEI can always survive against the AI with historical balance, whereas surely they had no chance in reality?

[*Lava*]

Did you bump up the difficulty level at all?

[IanShaw]

Good point - not yet, though I should give that a go. But will that make a difference to how the AI decides its strategy - will it actually invade Sumatra with the increased balance setting? Or is this random and in the three games I've played with Zero-Five the AI decided not to? In the 3 games I've played with Zero-Five I've used the Random AI strategy, though with limited oil (DEI surviving each time) it was never clear what strategy it was actually following.
I gather that there may be a new release soon? I thought I'd delay my next game until that appears. WPP is certainly an excellent game (congrats to Alvaro).

[generalfdog]

The AI is just not that good if you want a challenge you have to bump them up 1 or 2 levels on both logistics and experience. Playing WPE a descent player can easily hold France vs a historical AI and Germany doesn't stand a chance either, original release was balanced for AI to be able to easily accomplish historical objectives, but human players were having a run away and it was too easy for Japan so it was rebalanced now it plays pretty well vs 2 evenly matched human players, if you want the AI to keep up they need a boost

[*Lava*]

Even with the boost, I let the Japanese AI run riot in the DEI. If they don't take the oil objectives there, it's game over. So not much fun. After that, if you have given a bump to the AI, the game is really fun and it is no holds barred.

Personally I believe that strategy games of this nature need to be based for single players. Single player strategy games, IMO, is where the sales are. I, for one, am not really interested in PBEM centric games.

For PBEM, house rules can always be implemented to even things out.

[generalfdog]

I don't hardly play the AI any more so I would disagree because of that but also because the AI is never as good as a human and I think it should be balanced for somewhat equal playing skills, but it should be fun for all glad you enjoy playing AI it should work for that also, that is why you can turn up the difficulty right?

[*Lava*]

We'll have to beg to differ, I guess.

I think if you look at gaming in general, you still have lots of competitive titles, but the number of Coop games have been increasing each year.

I personally prefer single player.

[GiveWarAchance]

I prefer single player too. These games tend to be balanced which favors PBEM games but is bad for single player. Ideally there should be two versions of a scenario for single player so it gives the AI side more units and other advantages to help them. A good example is the Gary Grisby game 'World at War: A world divided" which has two beefed up campaigns Axis Power and Allied Arsenal or something like that so the player goes against the beefed up AI side. As the axis, it took me 6 or 8 tries to finally overcome the brutal allies, and I tried the allied side against the Axis Power and couldn't really survive except one hotseat game I did with another human helping me to fight against the fiendish AI.

[eskuche]

Just gonna tag this along to this thread, but for PBEM currently (with about 5 games on both sides under my belt since 1.05) Bandar Lampung is a game-deciding roll of the dice. Even with the best odds of 2 x 7:1 attacks on turn one, it is not a guaranteed Japanese victory to push off the city. If this doesn't happen turn 1, Japan is horribly crippled and might as well give up the game. Turn 2 invariably has rain, making a turn 2 push very unlikely if it didn't happen on turn 1. Not sure how to balance this without making it a cakewalk, but a possible start would be to reverse the garrison strengths at the size 1 port NE of Palambang and BL. This allows IJN to have a reasonable non-dice roll probably to take the 30 oil without killing DEI immediately. While we're on that topic, the far western Sumatra unit never actually does anything in any game I've played. Consider giving it a size 1 port or move it further east...

[ncc1701e]

Historically, Japan invades Borneo before DEI. And there are plenty of oil in Bornea too.

Borneo: 25 oil.
DEI: 31 oil.

[ncc1701e]

In the latest patch, there is a bad surprise. My bombers can be intercepted on top of Singapore by DEI fighters.
This is new.

Air force.JPG (94.81 KiB) Viewed 1056 times

[ncc1701e]

Looks like they are fighter bombers 1940 tech and thus the extended range.

So, I was the one complaining about the lack of RAF planes in Singapore. I can say I am happy now.
But, the problem is where is the Japanese fighters on turn one?

I am now taking huge losses trying to destroy Repulse and Prince of Wales by air.

Can't we have Japanese fighters there on turn one to have real Air to Air combat as historically?

I would suggest to move 6th Air Div from hex 80, 78 to hex 37, 46 on turn 1.

Air force 2.JPG (124.98 KiB) Viewed 1054 times

[Remington700]

I can get 8:1 by landing a unit to secure the beachhead and then moving it out to make room for the two SNLF divisions. I also land a reserve just incase it takes two turns to push out the defender (need a unit to advance into the city). It takes a large commitment to make it highly likely Palembang will fall, but still no guarantee. I worry more about the heavy rain as there is nothing I can do about that.

Eskuche's point is valid. There is an element of chance involved here that can change the whole course of the game. If you fail to take Bandar on turn one, or if you fail to take Palembang by turn 3 you are out of oil. And I have been hit with heavy rain on turn 2 or 3 - which grounds your planes.

The problem for Japan is that it takes a full scale effort for the IJN in the Solomon's to keep the allied units at bay. I park 3 different "3 to 4-ship" task forces to contest landings on New Guinea and the islands north of Guadalcanal (which I capture on turn 1). And they have to stay on station until I can bring in landing troops to take key islands. This burns through oil and Borneo cannot supply enough. You need a mix of both Borneo and Sumatra. If Japan runs out of oil it is very difficult to keep Bougainville out of allied hands. Planes in Buin reek havoc on the area. In fact, if the Allies fully commit, they can put the Ausie Ranger unit (10sp) there on turn 1. It will probably take damage but survive. Japan must counter before it builds back up. Which can be done - if you have the oil. If not, Rabaul falls way too early.

Personally I am very happy with the way the game is working, as long as Japan does not get hit with heavy rain before turn four on Sumatra. Japan has to fully commit to Sumatra and the Solomon's, which slows down advances in Burma and causes the Philippines to hang on until they run out of supply. Plus it takes longer before Japan can start to ravage allied convoy lanes and capture Ceylon. This makes for a very good game in my opinion.

[ncc1701e]

What about increasing the oil stockpile of Japan from 33% to 50% at the beginning?
This way, it would mitigate a bad luck.

[Remington700]

Adding some oil to Japan at the start of the game is an interesting idea. It would help, but I am not sure what the unintended consequences would be. I like the way the game is playing now - Both Japan and the Allies feel like they are on a shoestring with too much to do, and too little to do it with.

Maybe it is not such a bad thing if Japan runs out of oil? The game will be lopsided, but it would add variety and in my opinion would not happen all that often. Might not be such a great thing for PBEM though - I imagine the game would be over fast.

[eskuche]

Adding some oil to Japan at the start of the game is an interesting idea. It would help, but I am not sure what the unintended consequences would be. I like the way the game is playing now - Both Japan and the Allies feel like they are on a shoestring with too much to do, and too little to do it with.

Maybe it is not such a bad thing if Japan runs out of oil? The game will be lopsided, but it would add variety and in my opinion would not happen all that often. Might not be such a great thing for PBEM though - I imagine the game would be over fast.

Every time BL wasn't taken turn 1 when I'm the Allies I've starved IJN to death almost without fail. When this has happened to me (last two games), Japan is ground to a halt by turn 2 or 3, which is historically extremely unrealistic.

[Remington700]

I have been able to take Bandar on turn 1 but have failed to take Palembang twice before running out of oil - both because of heavy rain. Looking at the weather charts, there is a 25% chance of heavy rain. Increasing oil, as was suggested by ncc1701e, would provide an additional turn, thus improving the odds for success.

[ncc1701e]

Looks like they are fighter bombers 1940 tech and thus the extended range.

So, I was the one complaining about the lack of RAF planes in Singapore. I can say I am happy now.
But, the problem is where is the Japanese fighters on turn one?

I am now taking huge losses trying to destroy Repulse and Prince of Wales by air.

Can't we have Japanese fighters there on turn one to have real Air to Air combat as historically?

I would suggest to move 6th Air Div from hex 80, 78 to hex 37, 46 on turn 1.

Air force 2.JPG

@Alvaro, could we have a Japanese air superiority around Malaya please? This is a-historical to have such air losses here. It was more the contrary.

[eskuche]

Looks like they are fighter bombers 1940 tech and thus the extended range.

So, I was the one complaining about the lack of RAF planes in Singapore. I can say I am happy now.
But, the problem is where is the Japanese fighters on turn one?

I am now taking huge losses trying to destroy Repulse and Prince of Wales by air.

Can't we have Japanese fighters there on turn one to have real Air to Air combat as historically?

I would suggest to move 6th Air Div from hex 80, 78 to hex 37, 46 on turn 1.

Air force 2.JPG

@Alvaro, could we have a Japanese air superiority around Malaya please? This is a-historical to have such air losses here. It was more the contrary.

Seconded. DEI air force sinks BC/BB/CV on average in a game for me.

[ncc1701e]

Not sure how to balance this without making it a cakewalk, but a possible start would be to reverse the garrison strengths at the size 1 port NE of Palambang and BL. This allows IJN to have a reasonable non-dice roll probably to take the 30 oil without killing DEI immediately.

Well, in the latest 1.00.06.2 patch, the units in Cape Carot and Bandar Lampung are exactly the same.
I think giving Japanese a little more oil reserve, on turn one, is the way to go.

They had six months of free operations according to the famous quote from Admiral Yamamoto. It was not without oil reserve.