Axis allies useless?

[Stamb]

axis ai is at 119 morale

[loki100]

119 is irrelevant,the manual sets out the implications for changing the axis morale variable for the axis allies.

[Stamb]

if we take base morale as 40 then at 119 morale in a battle this unit's morale should be 40*1.19 = 47.6?

Its a big difference in morale (which does not help axis allies anyway)

[exalted]

While moral does help axis allies it does much less than one might expect. I've run two GC from 41-43 with +10nm for axis allies and the axis allies where only marginally more useful than normally.

They still have problems with horrible leaders and I'm just guessing their division OB and equipment is so poor they would require quite a bit more than +10nm, some results in combat even with 65+ moral axis allies are so horrible its comical even thought they can have decently displayed CV.

[Stamb]

Agree.
It seems that their CV drops every time.

Some time it can go from 129 to 9 like in a screenshot that i posted. Which is 14 times less real CV than displayed.

It was turn 2. I assume that they had 100CPP and 0 fatigue as units in the south were frozen.
If i recall correctly then IRL axis allies had problems with anti tank weapons.
But in game they suck against any units.

I will be making screenshots of every battle with axis allies in my campaign.
We will see how it goes.

[loki100]

if we take base morale as 40 then at 119 morale in a battle this unit's morale should be 40*1.19 = 47.6?

Its a big difference in morale (which does not help axis allies anyway)

except it doesn't work that way - read the relevant manual section

always a good idea to get the concept clear before claiming the game is broken?

You might also want to double check how shifting NM (which is what the morale modifier does) affects individual unit morale. As a wee clue, it doesn't alter the base morale at the moment of calculation for combat or movement.

[Stamb]

if we take base morale as 40 then at 119 morale in a battle this unit's morale should be 40*1.19 = 47.6?

Its a big difference in morale (which does not help axis allies anyway)

except it doesn't work that way - read the relevant manual section

always a good idea to get the concept clear before claiming the game is broken?

You might also want to double check how shifting NM (which is what the morale modifier does) affects individual unit morale. As a wee clue, it doesn't alter the base morale at the moment of calculation for combat or movement.

Did i say that 119 morale changes base morale? Or did i say that it changes final morale in a battle?

Screenshot from 2022-03-27 20-43-26.png (77.31 KiB) Viewed 859 times

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p4966017

Looks like i am not the only one who are trying to calculate unit's morale in such way. If it is the wrong method - please point to a section from a manual how to get final morale value when morale setting is not 100.

I can be wrong with a base morale of 40, in my calculations. Maybe it is 45 for a Romanians. I do not remember.

Edit.

I was wrong as it does not affect axis allies:

Raising this above 100 will impact on combat performance, unit morale and the
resulting cost of movement into enemy territory. In effect, the basic morale of each
unit is multiplied by the value you set. Note that for the Axis side such a morale gain
only affects German units not those of the various Allied nations (Chapter 14).

but

The AI is also given a chance of getting a special bonus in combat that will
cause some disruption and a smaller amount of damage to the enemy at
the start of each combat. This bonus applies to the Axis AI in the period to
November 1941 and from April-November 1942. It will apply to the Soviet
side from March 1943 onwards.

[Stamb]

Does poor axis allies performance mean that game is broken? No.
Does it mean that they are useless? You can read other players opinions about it. They seems to agree with such description.

[Stamb]

There is one more thing.

Lets say that IRL axis allies were not able to win vs weak soviet divisions without horrendous losses. As it is right now in the game.
So the question is if game wants to stay as close as possible to a history or it can diverge from it for the sake of balance?

Currently Soviets lose around 2 times less people in `41 in comparison to a history. 2.5-3mil vs 5-6mil IRL.
I would assume it is done for the balance purposes.
In that case i see no reasons why Axis allies can not be adjusted as we all know what they are capable of.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Axis allies useless?

Nope, not at all. Soviet secret doctrine says, "Little light blue counters & yellow counters best there is for punishing & making Guard units. Don't even have to read the manual to know that

Why I play beast mode now = Soviets

[tm1]

This has seem to be the age old question from back in the days of the WITE 1 forum.

But what i have read from a number of books on for example The Italian Army.

They seem to be given the short end of the is stick.

I'm no expert but there poor showing was due to many factors including

Poor equipment

Political interference

General military doctrine which was based on tactics, case in point there poor showing against the French in 1940,they weren't prepared for a European war there doctrine was centred around the Mediterranean theatre.

Not certain if i'm wording this right.

However there Alpine troops were second to none and The Carabinieri were some of the best troops, I believe they evolved into there modern day police force.

When Italy change sides and fought with the Allies Italian troops really came into there own and showed there worth.

[Stamb]

There is a good post from a Jango:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 4#p4977354

Italian national morale for professionally trained soldiers belonging to divisions that were not newly raised is in a very interesting position relative to Soviet national morale, from which hastily raised conscript forces with little (and effective) training across all levels in the Soviet formation in 1941 benefit - namely morale 50 until September and morale 45 after September. Which is higher by 10 and 5 respectively than Italian national morale.

And I agree with him.

[loki100]

...

I was wrong as it does not affect axis allies:

Raising this above 100 will impact on combat performance, unit morale and the
resulting cost of movement into enemy territory. In effect, the basic morale of each
unit is multiplied by the value you set. Note that for the Axis side such a morale gain
only affects German units not those of the various Allied nations (Chapter 14).

but

The AI is also given a chance of getting a special bonus in combat that will
cause some disruption and a smaller amount of damage to the enemy at
the start of each combat. This bonus applies to the Axis AI in the period to
November 1941 and from April-November 1942. It will apply to the Soviet
side from March 1943 onwards.

I realise you have 'a point to make' and that point must be made.

I make no comment on how good a model the allied NM is - but do note I personally can get a lot of use out of them and do not see the very low morale formations some people report. As ever, that makes me a wee bit suspicious that playstyle comes into play.

So we finally get an admission that shifting the morale value doesn't affect axis allies.

The manual states quite clearly that changing that value sets a new NM for the Soviets or German - units then treat that as the new 'target' value, it doesn't directly affect the morale of a given unit

your final quote is rather selective - that only applies if you set the morale to 120, it gives a far more challenging and enjoyable game as it compensates the AI for a lack of pockets. If I understand your example, you are playing at 119 - so doesn't apply.

So apologies for tediously insisting the discussion is about the game as designed, so I'll leave this thread to you to fill with the evidence you have that the game doesn't work the way you assume it does.

[Stamb]

The AI is also given a chance of getting a special bonus in combat that will
cause some disruption and a smaller amount of damage to the enemy at
the start of each combat. This bonus applies to the Axis AI in the period to
November 1941 and from April-November 1942. It will apply to the Soviet
side from March 1943 onwards.

...
your final quote is rather selective - that only applies if you set the morale to 120, it gives a far more challenging and enjoyable game as it compensates the AI for a lack of pockets. If I understand your example, you are playing at 119 - so doesn't apply.
...

Screenshot from 2022-03-28 09-39-14.png (199.3 KiB) Viewed 732 times

It is not clear from a manual, at least for me, that part that i quoted applies to a units with >= 120 morale. In previous points in a manual there is a talk about 110 morale. In a quoted one there is nothing about morale so i understand it, when i was reading it before your post that it applies to a units with >= 110 morale or to any unit controlled by an AI that is in specific time range.

Anyway, thanks for joining in.

[loki100]

Your first quote clearly says, adjust morale setting, this resets NM, units then adjust.

the second quote says that at 120+ the AI gets additional bonuses, there is a discussion in the Players Notes that elaborates on this (we felt it was better there as its a concept that Gary might tweak and best discussed as a broad principle)

So really, if you want to endlessly claim the game is wrong, it is much more compelling as an argument when based against the game as designed and documented?

[Stamb]

I'm sorry but i do not understand how it applies to a screenshot that i posted:

Your first quote clearly says, adjust morale setting, this resets NM, units then adjust.

the second quote says that at 120+ the AI gets additional bonuses, there is a discussion in the Players Notes that elaborates on this (we felt it was better there as its a concept that Gary might tweak and best discussed as a broad principle)

But i believe you that AI gets this bonuses only when >=120 morale.

So really, if you want to endlessly claim the game is wrong, it is much more compelling as an argument when based against the game as designed and documented?

Axis allies performance for a game balance is wrong, not whole game. If whole game is wrong then i would not be on this forum for sure.
But i understand that for some reason you try to prove that there are no issues with a game. In any topic, except of tech support, you are denying almost any post that talks about a balance from a players. Let it be.

[Killmaster851]

Yes maybe more people would discuss and aid game on forum without the constant shotingdown and attacks from loki.......

We just love game and want to see it become better what is problem? Axis minor now mostly serve to aid soviets by giving them easy wins and using up german supply.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Yes maybe more people would discuss and aid game on forum without the constant shotingdown and attacks from loki.......

We just love game and want to see it become better what is problem? Axis minor now mostly serve to aid soviets by giving them easy wins and using up german supply.

Good luck with that! It has happened to many on this forum & will continue to happen on the forum since in my opinion it seems to be brow beating people down then chest pounding. I like the man, he has great knowledge on the game, but the method used is not conducive for a constructive talk when every conversation ends in with either a bias or game is broken accusation.

[loki100]

Because there is a critical difference

1) I am not saying the Axis Allies are (or are not) useless - I seem to be able to get enough out of them not to be worried, clearly others disagree. Equally, like all you, I've read Joel's posts on the topics

2) Stamb's post at the top of this page is wrong, its that simple. He implies that having the axis at 119 adjusts the morale of the allies (& I assume in some way this proves the basic premise) - it doesn't. its that binary, its not an opinion, its wrong. In the end he finally admits it.

So does his original interpretation get us anywhere in a discussion? Nope. is it better that factually inacurate posts (usually made in good faith), get corrected?

Well I'm silly enough to believe so.

Now I know a load of posters who have given up correcting stuff as it just seems pointless. I have no illusions that my views are going to affect the approach of a group of you, but I'd rather someone new to the game doesn't read something that is simply incorrect. So yep, I end up pretty much on my own trying to explain the actual mechanics as opposed to how someone has decided they are. And its pretty boring.

[Stamb]

Yep. I thought it was that 119 morale modifier applies to an axis allies. I was wrong. And I said it.
Even when this unit has base morale is it still fine to get such a bad result considering 100% CPP?

What about all other posts in this thread and in two other threads were people (not only me) were showing how bad axis allies perform?
It is also useless moans where players provide screenshots and if necessary saves?