Why the rout?

[MSAG]

1.02.24. H2H game. T4 of the campaign.

172nd Rifle Division. Refitted, reasonably rested and supplied. Placed in Light Woods and lightly fortified. As pictured at the end of T3:

001 172RD on T3.png (304.25 KiB) Viewed 1040 times

Here is the combat report on T4:

5-1 Rout.png (623.2 KiB) Viewed 1040 times

Why has the unit routed? According to the Manual (23.12) the rout can occur (there are some tests to be conducted before it does) if the Morale is lower than the final combat odds. Here it was 3.3:1 and morale was 46.

I am obviously missing something.

If anyone knows the rout determination formula, please advise.

[Jango32]

Probably too many of its combat elements were destroyed and the division became depleted at the end of the combat resolution. Divisions automatically rout if they neighbour enemy divisions when considered depleted. This was the main culprit behind divisions routing away when defending in urban hexes in the previous patches.

[Stamb]

On this screenshot:


OHQ is STAVKA

does it mean that 34th rifle corps reports to a STAVKA?

if thats true then you are missing army/front rolls

[malyhin1517]

Judging by the screen, your division was defeated and received a lot of untrained soldiers as replacements. As a result, the experience of most combat units, including infantry, is only 36! Therefore, such troops easily flee when attacked by a very experienced German motorized division!

[AlbertN]

Pretty confident it's what Jango said.
Between destroyed, damaged and disabled, the Division ceased to be a combat formation, and routed. (Then disabled elements revert to being functional once the routed status is removed I believe).

That outcome is the effect of what the other players said above, poor leadership rolls, low experience troops etc. But this is the cause, for the effect of many losses vs a '41 German division (motorized as well).

I am just knitting together what others said, truly.

[MSAG]

Thank you for all your replies & your contributions.

Summarizing - It seems that the rout was triggered either by (1) the combat and its 'final odds' or by (2) depletion of the unit due to losses.

Option (1)
The final odds are presented on the combat report. Attacker 62=>74 and Defender 71=>22 therefore 74:22 equals 3.3:1. (74 and 22 are the final combat values as per Manual (37.1.1)).

As per Manual 23:12 we have:

002 rout rules.png (184.58 KiB) Viewed 884 times

According to above the routing threshold was not reached in the case discussed.

Option (2)
According to Manual the unit has to be below 10% of TOE in order to enter the Depleted state. 172ndRD is in UNREADY status during T4. Moreover, most of the losses were caused by the rout and not by the combat.
So - Has the unit been depleted? - I do not see that.

So what happened?
My best guess is (as the unit definitely routed) that either there is an additional/different odds comparison for rout determination purpose (like 'final - final' odds after the battle) or there is additional leader check for example.

[loki100]

....
Option (2)
According to Manual the unit has to be below 10% of TOE in order to enter the Depleted state. 172ndRD is in UNREADY status during T4. Moreover, most of the losses were caused by the rout and not by the combat.
So - Has the unit been depleted? - I do not see that.

So what happened?
My best guess is (as the unit definitely routed) that either there is an additional/different odds comparison for rout determination purpose (like 'final - final' odds after the battle) or there is additional leader check for example.

its the TOE at the end of the combat (ie with disrupted elements ignored) that is used for depletion, once the combat is completed (ie hold/retreat/rout decided) then the disrupted elements convert to fatigue and recover.

no additional rule, just the unready status at the turn end is not a guide to its status at the end of the combat.

This was the issue affecting combat in urban hexes, the defender could 'win' (ie final oddz <2-1) but have so much disrupted they were depleted at that moment, so routed (& took extra losses for this)

[Joel Billings]

Did the unit receive replacements on turn 4? If it rallied it might have. I'm not sure of some of what's being discussed and will need to check, but at 3 to 1 odds, the unit will retreat. During the retreat, it will suffer retreat attrition. The retreat attrition on a unit with such low experience ground elements is likely to be brutal. It's possible that it was during the retreat that the rout was triggered, although I don't know the exact timing of events or the mechanics. Bottom line is that the division, while looking ok on paper, was not sufficiently trained up to withstand the attack, and against a motorized opponent, it fell apart in the retreat.

[Hardradi]

So what happened?
My best guess is (as the unit definitely routed) that either there is an additional/different odds comparison for rout determination purpose (like 'final - final' odds after the battle) or there is additional leader check for example.

This was raised previously in WitE1. A reasonable response was provided as follows:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 9#p3678419

I don't think the rules coded in the game are following the manual. Perhaps they were changed at some point. Most important is the check morale<40+Die(15) and it is repeated in many places.

So it appears that the exception in the manual might apply to other situations which are not listed.

[Joel Billings]

Based on a conversation with Gary yesterday, I'd say the WitE1 explanation is correct. Gary says there are many different places in the code that can trigger routing, and the specific odds is probably only factoring into one or some of them. Bottom line, for the lower morale/experience units that are many ways they can end up routing and there's no easy way to document them all. Probably would have been best if we had left things more general in this area of the manual.

[MSAG]

Thank you all for your responses.

@Joel: Really appreciate your following up with Gary & sharing the clarification with our community. Thank you, very truly.

My take:

In order to avoid(or limit probability of) routs the best policy seems to be:

(1) Avoid losing combats
(2) Keep MOR/EXP at max possible (which is easier said than done in Soviet 41-42' case).

[malyhin1517]

Based on a conversation with Gary yesterday, I'd say the WitE1 explanation is correct. Gary says there are many different places in the code that can trigger routing, and the specific odds is probably only factoring into one or some of them. Bottom line, for the lower morale/experience units that are many ways they can end up routing and there's no easy way to document them all. Probably would have been best if we had left things more general in this area of the manual.

Therefore, I drew attention to the extremely low experience of the main combat units of this unit! Most of them had experience 36, that is, they are recruits without any experience and at the first battle they fled despite the good supply!

[Stamb]

I noticed that if there are battles vs panzers my units almost always route.
Just some examples.

All of my divisions had good morale and exp (48-52+), 80+ toe

1.png (949.4 KiB) Viewed 564 times

Is it somehow related to a new tank changes?
I just have no better units to use against them.
So if they route when their NM was 50, what gonna happen with 45?

[Stamb]

And just for comparison.
Battle when there are no panzers but many more men and higher attacker's odds:

2.png (326.08 KiB) Viewed 561 times

yes it is lvl 2 fortification, but there are 1k guns and my units retreat just fine

[jubjub]

Judging by the screen, your division was defeated and received a lot of untrained soldiers as replacements. As a result, the experience of most combat units, including infantry, is only 36! Therefore, such troops easily flee when attacked by a very experienced German motorized division!

Good catch. The Soviet leader is also terrible (4 morale, 4 infantry), so this could also go a long way to explaining the result.