Tomcats don't guide Phoenixes

[thephalanx1453]

In the scenario "Flight Tutorial 8", when I order my Tomcats to manually attack the enemy Jammer and AWACS, they launch the Phoenixes then turn away.

If I leave them alone in patrol against incoming aircraft, sometimes, they'd crank and turn their radar on every 5 seconds, so the Phoenixes would go "blind" for 5 seconds and get re-adjusted, which I think is intended behavior for the Phoenix mid-course guidance (Time-Shared Semi-Active (TSARH), whatever that means).
However, sometimes, they'd turn away right after launch, and the Phoenixes would go active the whole way, without guidance, which almost always result in misses. It's really inconsistent and I don't know why. Other aircraft would automatically turn on their radar and launch their AMRAAMs by themselves
Sometimes, the 5 seconds thing works well, until on one the the "flashes" the radar seems to fail to acquire the target or comes on too late, and the missile goes active and is no longer guided, well before the terminal phase.





Second question: How do I make a manual attack against targets out of range? I'm trying to get a flight of 2 Tomcats to do a manual attack vs 2 enemy planes that are out of range. I assign the missiles, and close the window, but the Tomcats don't turn and close in with the targets. They just keep as before.

[thephalanx1453]

As you can see, this is a Tomcat on patrol against in coming aircraft. It launched 2 missiles against 2 targets, the 1st missile goes active right away, while the 2nd missile is under Tomcat's radar guidance (the radar flashes once every 5 seconds). What gives? I'd like for all missiles launched to be under radar guidance until their terminal phase, thanks.

[thewood1]

I think for active guidance missiles, if the firing unit is under tight EMCOM, the firing unit will only turn on its radar for bare minimum guidance. If you want the radar on continuously, the firing unit's EMCOM has to be set for active radar,

[thephalanx1453]

I think for active guidance missiles, if the firing unit is under tight EMCOM, the firing unit will only turn on its radar for bare minimum guidance. If you want the radar on continuously, the firing unit's EMCOM has to be set for active radar,

Right, but for the AMRAAMs and missiles like it, I'd never have to do any baby-sitting. They'd turn on their radar automatically and continuously, and automatically turn it off when no longer needed. Same with the SARH missiles, including the Tomcat's Sparrows.
It's just in the case of the Phoenix where it's really wonky.

[Gunner98]

The Phoenix was also the first generation of this type of missile, very complex and from what I read it was a bit tricky to use. It was designed as a bomber killer but we tend to use it against anything that flies, considering that it cost more and took longer to produce than most Soviet fighters of the era except the Mig-25/31, there was a reason why the Tomcat carried Sparrows.

B

[thewood1]

My understanding of the AIM-54C and F-14 fire control is that there are six modes of operation. No point going into all of them, but they basically break down into various forms of continuous or pulsed (not to be confused with pulse doppler) operation. In continuous, the radar maintains a constant lock and the Phoenix follows it into the target just like a SARH missile. In the pulsed mode, the missile heads to a designated spot where the initial radar lock says the enemy unit will be. Every few seconds, the F-14's radar pulses on, verifies lock, and the Phoenix updates its guidance. At a predetermined point, the AIM-54 goes active.

I know there are circumstances where the Phoenix goes active without any final guidance. Those include bearing only launches and if the Tomcat detects a higher priority threat and has to turn away from the original target. In short, I think the devs are trying to simulate all the different modes that make the Tomcat/Phoenix combination very unique. If you want to Tomcats to keep their radar on continuously, I think you'll have to tell them to. I just tested it out and saw little difference in final out come having the time-share mode vs having the continuous mode. I think one other situation is at close range, the Phoenix radar comes on from launch. Not sure what that range is.

Most of this is from memory and I'll double check some of that. There are a couple websites that explain in detail how all the modes work. I'd have to go track those down.

[thephalanx1453]

In the pulsed mode, the missile heads to a designated spot where the initial radar lock says the enemy unit will be. Every few seconds, the F-14's radar pulses on, verifies lock, and the Phoenix updates its guidance. At a predetermined point, the AIM-54 goes active.

In short, I think the devs are trying to simulate all the different modes that make the Tomcat/Phoenix combination very unique. If you want to Tomcats to keep their radar on continuously, I think you'll have to tell them to.

My problem is not with realism or the simulation, it's with how they're implemented within the game. By default, having EMCON off would get you pulse-mode, which is what I'd like to use. However, that mode's behavior is wonky. If a pulse is missed, or even a second late, the game engine treats the missile as having "lost guidance", and turns the missile active, while treating the Tomcat as having "finished its attack". To me this "wonkiness" is a bug, not a feature. In case of missed/late pulses, I'd prefer if the missile maintains its inertial course until receiving a pulse that re-establishes contact, instead of the game engine telling the missile to go active and telling the Tomcat pilot "mission accomplished".
Otherwise this entire "mode" is unusable in-game, and I don't think the devs meant for it to be that way.

Basically, I think the pulse-mode needs better optimization for it to work with the game engine, as the game engine treats a missile that's blind for more than 5 seconds as "lost", and the pulses are timed exactly at 5 seconds, which results in problems.

As for bearing-only launches, the "bearing-only launches" currently occurring at long range with my Phoenixes are not a result of any tactical consideration as far as I can see, it's simply bugged behavior, IMO.

[thewood1]

Not sure I agree. Mainly because I don't know how the missile behaves in real-life. Do you have any sources that state that the missile doesn't go autonomous if pulses are missed? I've seen nothing mentioned about it either way.

[thewood1]

Also, as is always asked, if its a bug, you should put the thread in the tech support section with a save that shows the exact issue. Not just a screenshot.

[thephalanx1453]

Not sure I agree. Mainly because I don't know how the missile behaves in real-life. Do you have any sources that state that the missile doesn't go autonomous if pulses are missed? I've seen nothing mentioned about it either way.

I'm fairly sure it's a bug, because the rate of in-game Phoenixes on "time-share" mode going "wild" well before terminal phase, or simply launching in active mode at very long range with no guidance, is *way* too high (more than half the time from my tests), for it to be an intended depiction by the devs.

Also, as is always asked, if its a bug, you should put the thread in the tech support section with a save that shows the exact issue. Not just a screenshot.

I wasn't sure if it was a bug before I made this thread, or just me missing something. From the responses I got it seems like I'm getting a bug due to poor workings between an AI behavior (radar pulses every 5 seconds) and the game engine (missile guidance gets dropped after 5 seconds and never gets re-connected). I'll make a new thread in the Tech Support forum with a save.