German 1st Wave OOB - Rifle Squads

[WillyPete]

This question was probably discussed long ago, but I couldn't find a reply. Just really curious about the numbers at play here. Shouldn't German infantry divisions have more rifle squads? The average division has 324 squads per division at the beginning of the game. Even when including machine gun and mortar squads, it still seems a little light. I just expected to see a higher number considering German IDs have 3 regiments of 3 battalions each. Thanks!

[cain012]

The numbers are correct. A 1st Wave division, by 1941 with current schutzenkompanie KStNs (specifically, KStN 131c as I recall), had three regiments of three battalions of three rifle companies and one MG company each, with each infantry company consisting of three platoons of four squads each.

12 squads per company
36 squads per battalion
108 squads per regiment
3 regiments = 324 squads

Obviously each platoon had other things—mortar sections, HQ sections, etc. These are either abstracted as “support” or designated as weapons with attendant personnel, not as “squads.”

[cain012]

Now, that being said, 1st Welle Divisions also had “Feldersatz-Bataillons” that I think were organized identically to the rifle companies. I can’t recall whether they are represented by some other type of squad, or abstracted as “support” since the Feldersatz-Bataillon was not really a front-line combat formation until later in the war when it became the “Fusilier-Bataillon,” combining the roles of divisional reserve, bicycle recon, and replacement training.

[Light4bettor]

Of the lets say 16,000 - 18,000 men that a early war German Infanterie division might have as a TOE- about 64 percent of them are the actual combat elements that participate in some manner with direct interactions with an enemy (without busting out the calculator lets say 9,000- 11,000 combat soldiers, including pure infantry, who actually fight). The other 36 percent is non-combat related (but they still have training and can fight defensively in a pinch), doing stuff like medical, finance, administrative, mail, food services, take care of the horses, repair etc etc. Generally speaking, outside of emergencies the non-combat personnel won't participate in combat missions, because losses to them would risk making the unit operate less efficiently.

As previously stated the early war German Infanterie divison (exeptions being Moutain and Jaeger light infantry divisons)- would carry 3 Infantry regiments as its main projection of combat power. So, if we say 1 on those infantry regiments has roughly 3000-3500 combat soldiers, (based on the above paragraph)-- then 324 divided by 3 would equal 108. 108 means apprx 1080 men are in the actual infantry squads that belong a single regiment (and like you said, further subdivided into battalions then companies- platoons). But an infantry regiment is not just made up of the pure infantry squads. Each regiment has its TOE of machine guns, field guns, AT tank rifles, mortars- and their crews etc etc which makes up the the balance - i.e, the other 2500 men (who are part of the infantry division but are not listed as infantry squads-- but are listed on the games TOE as the crews of those weapon systems, of the Regiment. And all these elements work together and try to use combined arms to fight the enemy. Now another concept, is that the regiments have their own non-combat personnel that are intrinsic the to the regiment-- the Divisional headquarters will also have assets that are intrinsic to itself that it can parcel out to the regiments under it as it sees fit. (akin to the way support units are used in game).

So when its generally said that 3 million mostly Germans- crossed the border on June 22-- the actual number of frontline pure infantry squads that are doing the majority of the harder work (could have their heads frequently on the chopping block daily for the duration of the war)-- is probably along the order of less than half a million (the number of infantry divisions 130? multiplied by 3240 pure riflemen per infantry division). Along an eventual 2000 mile front, that is kinda thin. This half a million is rough- but its gives fair idea of the ratio / proportion.

[Light4bettor]

Just for reference-This 8th Infanterie division which is probably 1welle TOE.
As well as the Regimental TOE, you might notice the divisional allocation of its 66 37mm Pak guns. Of these- each Regiment owns 9 of its own (so 27 total). The Divisional Recon Battalion (a divisional asset, not under direct control of any Regt- has 3 37mm paks). And the Divisional Anti tank BN owns 36 of its own 37 mm pak guns (the AT Battalion was also a Divisional asset that could be parceled out by and was under the discretion of the Divisional commander-- so he could add weight/ firepower to certain regiments as needed).

TOE1.png (9.73 MiB) Viewed 1289 times

[DarkHorse2]

I would caution at directly using Mr. Askey's material at face value without verifying from other sources.

One thing I find personally annoying with what could otherwise be considered a gem of a resource, was Mr. Askey very liberal use of motorcycle squads without specifying the reference used.

If you check some of the references cited, for example, the WW II organizational series, he does not have all of these motorcycle squads.

Mr. Askey has a tendency to "sneak" things in and imply it is due to a reputable source reference.

I have personally used it, but only after cross-checking and verifying from other sources. Over time, as I have found other errors, I tend to use it and in only the most non-strict sense.

Case-in-point - look at the source of those 76 motorcycle squads. Many of those are actually "support" elements and those motorcycle squads were nothing more than messengers.

However, Mr. Askey likes to treat them as if they were combat troops. In reality, they did not even belong to combat KStNs and were truly, just messager/courier support.

The motorcycle troops that functioned in the recon elements were actually combat trained troops. Especially those in the Motorized and Panzer Divisions. But Mr. Askey clouds the details of his published TOE numbers and he has inflated combat-capable motorcycle squads in the Motorized and Panzer Divisions as well.

Those that were organized as Kradschutzen Battalions were truly combat troops.

Kradschützen Truppen motorcycle troops were motorized, lightly armed and highly mobile infantry units of the German Wehrmacht and Waffen SS, usually incorporated into the Panzer Divisions.

The Wehrmacht developed Kradschützen as a rapid mobile assault and reconnaissance force from 1936 and were used extensively during the early stages of the Second World War as part of the German Blitzkrieg successes (1939-1940) and Operation Barbarossa Invasion of Russia (June 1941).

Check page 25 of Volume IIA where he defines a "Motorcycle Squad" as containing 6-9 men. That is fairly close if considering a real Kraschutzen Truppen.

However, if you actually take his TOE numbers and compare against the historical KStN documents, you will find in many cases where there was originally only 1 or 2 motorcycles and drivers, those got expanded to being a full-fledged, combat capable, Motorcycle Squad in his TOE tables. (you would expect to find at least 6-9 motor-cyclers at least, right?)

Also, be very careful with his "Light Eng Squad" as well. When I checked, many times I found they were just Bridging squads and not fully combat capable.

[Light4bettor]

Of course, you are correct, every source should be evaluated. Whatever deficiencies Nigel's work may have, I don't think it detracts from the point I was using it to help illustrate. Namely, that the pure infantry squads make up a numerically small proportion of the division.

I remember being a young infantryman, and realizing that the infantry battalion I belonged to was roughly 500 folks. Which meant that the 3 infantry regiments on my base added up to about 4500-- but the 101st Air Assault division as a whole had a total of 18,000 personnel or so. And of the roughly 500 in a single battalion of infantry-- only about 450 were front-line infantry (3 line companies and one heavy weapons company)-- the rest would be HQ/staff/support personnel. Up to that point, based on I guess movies and television- that an infantry division was mostly infantry squads all day long. Now I realize that in order for the infantry to be effective, they need a lot of combat support- and administrative support behind them.
But also makes you think about Operation Bagration- and how thinly held sectors of Army group Center was especially with a 6 battalion line-up in 44.

[xhoel]

Up to that point, based on I guess movies and television- that an infantry division was mostly infantry squads all day long. Now I realize that in order for the infantry to be effective, they need a lot of combat support- and administrative support behind them.

But also makes you think about Operation Bagration- and how thinly held sectors of Army group Center was especially with a 6 battalion line-up in 44.

I think a lot of people have that image when it comes to infantry divisions. Whenever people read about a division being 18k men strong, they tend to forget that more than 2/3 of those men are doing support administrative duties that assist the riflemen. The numbers in game are correct. All these division sized units came with a long tail of support and additional forces that were not riflemen.

Thats a good point. Although I must say, the Germans were quite good at organizing Ad Hoc formations on the spot, something that the game doesnt really represent. The creation of such Kampfgruppen saved the day many times during the war and a lot of them were support personnel thrown in together and organized into a fighting unit as the moment dictated.

[Light4bettor]

Although I must say, the Germans were quite good at organizing Ad Hoc formations on the spot, something that the game doesnt really represent. The creation of such Kampfgruppen saved the day many times during the war and a lot of them were support personnel thrown in together and organized into a fighting unit as the moment dictated.

True, I felt the tactical flexibility displayed by the Germans- of which "organizing Ad Hoc formations on the spot,' is one aspect- derives from the culturally homogeneous nature (in many respects but not all encompassing) of German society combined with a strong military tradition that is ingrained in it.

I remember a story that my History professor told us in class once- he was teaching in Germany for a year- and he went to a crosswalk. There was no vehicle traffic- but everyone would wait to cross until when the green light for crossing came on. If you crossed when it was red- even if there was no traffic- people might give you some nasty looks ("why are you not doing what we all do, and wait properly" -unspoken society rules).- this was in the 90s, so I don't know how true it holds today- but I suspect there are still strong social mores that need to be followed.

Also, the standard way to tell time in Germany is by using a 24 hour clock I believe (e.g., 1300 or 1400 hours). - which is a practice that is foreign to most (besides certain subgroups- like the military) but one that the Japanese would probably accept heheh.

[DarkHorse2]

If you start breaking down some of Askey's tables and compare against http://niehorster.org/011_germany/books ... -07-07.pdf, you may get to something like the following:

8thInfDiv_TOE1_Askey2.jpg (2.93 MiB) Viewed 1081 times

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The items in red can almost entirely be deemed as WiTE2 Support Elements.

The items in purple, I can find no evidence fully supporting the asserted number of squads.
* in the case of Light Eng Squad, I can find evidence of, perhaps, 1 Light Eng Squad (definitely not 3 !!!)
* in the case of the Motorcycle Squads:
- with 1 exception, they were not organized as coherent squads.
(there is one Pionier KStN (KStN 702) that does seem to have a functioning Motorcycle Squad at the Bn HQ Level, but it is not clear if this KStN was actually being used. )
- in many cases there were a smattering of motorcyclists (perhaps 1, 2 at most) at various HQ levels. If you were so inclined, you could perhaps total those men and support an assertion of adding, maybe 1 Motorcycle Squad to the column. (but, IMO, that would be hard to justify as they were not trained / organized as a cohesive fighting element)


The items in blue have the most meaningful discrepancy (worth further investigation).

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In general, Askey's work was not really depicted to be 100% historically accurate, nor does it meet the professional standards of having fully verifiable references. His tables are really more reflective of how he, personally, would model a gaming simulation of Barbarossa.

He does take some creative liberties without fully disclosing when he deviates from cited materials.

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Note that the German 8th Infantry Division was a Welle 1 Division. WiTE2 has chosen to combine Welle 1 & 2 Divisions into a common TOE(OB). There could be some minor discrepancies as a result.

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EDIT:

The LMGs assigned do not seem to be fully represented in WiTE2. Almost every German firing battery had 2 LMGs assigned, but I do not believe this is accounted for in WiTE2.

This gets confusing fast as there are some LMGs included at the Element-level (i.e. Rifle Squads). But not all are correctly depicted, such as the LMGs assigned to each artillery firing battery.

[Jango32]

Case-in-point - look at the source of those 76 motorcycle squads. Many of those are actually "support" elements and those motorcycle squads were nothing more than messengers.

However, Mr. Askey likes to treat them as if they were combat troops. In reality, they did not even belong to combat KStNs and were truly, just messager/courier support.

Those that were organized as Kradschutzen Battalions were truly combat troops.

However, if you actually take his TOE numbers and compare against the historical KStN documents, you will find in many cases where there was originally only 1 or 2 motorcycles and drivers, those got expanded to being a full-fledged, combat capable, Motorcycle Squad in his TOE tables. (you would expect to find at least 6-9 motor-cyclers at least, right?)

To quote from IIA: "Even though less than half the above motorcycle squads were actually motorcycle infantry (Kradschutzen) squads armed with LMGs and heavy weapons".

[Jango32]

The light engineer squads are probably coming from The German Infantry Handbook (my guess), defined as these elements of the infantry regiment:

Regimental Engineer Platoon (Pionier)
The engineer platoon was formed of:
-1 platoon leader (usually a Leutnant), mounted
- Headquarters troop with troop leader, 3 messengers, one horseholder,
1 medical NCO on a bicycle
- 6 squads with a complement of 1/9 (the 1st, 3rd and 6th squads
with one light machine gun)
- 3 two-horse equipment wagons with entrenching tools, one twohorse
wagon with weapons.

This platoon consisted of so-called infantry engineers, who also wore the white service-arm color of the infantry (as opposed to the engineers of the engineer battalions with the black service-arm color). The infantry engineers were only capable of smaller technical assignments such as limited mine removal, roadbuilding, trench and position work, etc. When needed, they were also deployed to assist the "black" engineers.

EDIT: no, it's from Niehorster, but with the explanation (if not numbers, I think) from the German Infantry Handbook.

[DarkHorse2]

The following is also a helpful resource regarding a general sanity check of German TOEs.

Unfortunately, it is not broken down by Welle or have all the variations that existed.

German_InfantryDiv_OldType.JPG (473.13 KiB) Viewed 1059 times

German_InfantryDiv_OldType2.jpg (96.26 KiB) Viewed 1059 times

(see - https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/Germany/HB/HB-2.html)

[DarkHorse2]

Regarding what you posted, you have in RED the Sapper Platoon for the regiment.

What Askey has is it being 3 Eng Squads and 3 Lt Eng Squads.

Problem with that is there is no record of any Sapper (or Pionier) Platoon that accounts for those other 3 Lt Eng Squads.

The closest thing I can find is one for 3 Eng Squads and 1 Lt Eng Squad as follows:

SapperPlt_Example.jpg (54.11 KiB) Viewed 1056 times

It actually meets Askey's definition of a "Light" Eng Squad (basically same as regular Eng Squad, minus the LMG).

[Jango32]

It is the regimental engineer platoon. The German Infantry Handbook divides it into "6 squads with a complement of 1/9 (the 1st, 3rd and 6th squads with one light machine gun)". So 3 squads without LMGs, 3 squads with LMGs. Multiplied by 3 (one platoon for each regiment), you get 9 engineer squads and 9 "light engineer" squads.

[DarkHorse2]

Following are other good resources for German TOEs.

https://www.bayonetstrength.uk/GermanAr ... aderpg.htm

Note, the following is in German, and I would have preferred that he didn't generate those vehicle / equipment pictures and had just posted the raw KStN documents.... but whatever.... (sometimes I cannot make sense out of his picture tables... )

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstnmain.htm

[DarkHorse2]

It is the regimental engineer platoon. The German Infantry Handbook divides it into "6 squads with a complement of 1/9 (the 1st, 3rd and 6th squads with one light machine gun)". So 3 squads without LMGs, 3 squads with LMGs. Multiplied by 3 (one platoon for each regiment), you get 9 engineer squads and 9 "light engineer" squads.

It is from "The German Infantry Handbook 1939-1945, by Alex Buchner" ?

I don't have access to that ATM. Does it list a KStN as a reference?

I think I found something like it here:

https://www.wwiidaybyday.com/kstn/kstn130ll1feb41.htm

LL = Luftlande (Airborne?)

hmmm....

I can definitely find support docs regarding the German 7th AirLanding Division that indicates a Pioneer Platoon at the Inf Regiment HQ level that seems to be made up of 3 Pioneer Squads + 3 Light Pioneer Squads. But nothing so far for any other formation type, yet. see - https://alternatewars.com/Nafziger/Pt_I ... 41gqap.pdf

2nd (Infantry Pioneer) Platoon:

• 1 Troop Leader (officer)
  1 submachine gun & 1 100ccm motorcycle
• 1 Troop leader (NCO)
  1 submachine gun & 1 100ccm motorcycle
• 1 Corpsman (NCO)
  1 pistol & 1 bicycle
• 3 Motorcycle Messengers
  3 rifles & 3 100ccm motorcycles
• 6 Groups with:
  • 6 Group Leaders (NCOs)
    3 rifles & 3 submachine guns
  • 48 Pioneers & Machine Gunners
    42 rifles, 6 pistols, 3 light machine guns & 6 bicycles
  • 6 Motorcyclists
    6 rifles & 6 motorcycles with sidecars
  • 6 Carts

A lot of the detailed Pioneer related KStN docs are reported to not have survived WW2 -or- the Nazi shredders....

[Jango32]

That's the book. Unfortunately it's an "old style" book that doesn't list a reference exactly where it's used. They're all listed at the very end.

[DarkHorse2]

That's the book. Unfortunately it's an "old style" book that doesn't list a reference exactly where it's used. They're all listed at the very end.

That is unfortunate. I try to have a really good primary source (preferably 2) before I petition a change to the WiTE2 data tables. Sometimes I throw in Operation Barbarossa, Volume IIA. But don't feel it is a credible enough source reference to stand on its own.

[Jango32]

I can't say the series has failed me thus far. There are rough spots here and there like the lack of total men in the TOEs for volume II and sometimes ambiguous information like the aforementioned motorcycle squads (which in the same volume is noted that less than half of the total motorcycle squads were combat-capable Kradschutzen), but nothing totally shattering and usually I can find corroborating information, unless it's something that the vast majority of historians are puzzled by anyway (see the Ju-88 thread).