Pacwar is unbalanced?

[madflava13]

Here's the spot to continue the discussion from the Mogami/Kid AAR thread...

Gentlemen, you may continue at your leisure...

[pad152]

Even though the allied forces are there the Japanesse have a bonus move that allows there forces to "Appear" at there destination.

Huh??
Can some one explain this or did we just enter the Twilight Zone[X(]

[Capt. Harlock]

In reply to the point about having the Japanese player not be "Japanese":

Obviously we have to allow the players to make decisions, and even important decisions. Otherwise, we might as well just read the books or watch the movies. I am a firm believer in using historical OOB's. (If two players want to use the editor for a "what if" scenario, more power to them, but it's not my usual style.) But if a Japanese player wants to bypass Borneo and leap-frog to the northern coast of Australia, he should be permitted to do so. (Regardless of whether it's a good idea!) Likewise, he should be allowed to decide whether to send sub patrols against merchant shipping areas, or in forward combat areas. And isn't that the same as deciding whether warships or cargo ships are a higher priority?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: pad152

Even though the allied forces are there the Japanesse have a bonus move that allows there forces to "Appear" at there destination.

Huh??
Can some one explain this or did we just enter the Twilight Zone[X(]

Yes, could any of the alpha tester explain again the opening turn sequence again please. I understand the IJN player gets a free move (3-days?)[&:] but do they get free deployment as well? I still dont understand how any IJN units can reach all the way to Luganville on turn one.

[SouthernAP]

I think that one of the alpah testers explained that the coding changing with regards to ground combat. From my understanding of the posts it was changed that if you forces in a certain zone and no enemy forces were in the immediate area then any bases would of convert over by default to your control. So by fault that when one of the players landed on Guadalcanal on day one and there was no forces at Luganville he siezed it by default. So it is probably assumed that they transported a platoon or company there.

[mogami]

As I mentioned in the other thread a TF leaving Kwajalein on Dec 4th and arriving at Luganville on Dec 7th needs to travel at 15 kts.

There is no free deployment. The reason I require 18 hours to do turn 1 and form over 200 TF's is to redeploy. The bulk of these TF's do not reach their assigned destinations on turn 1 and these TF's are only moving from 1 Japanese base to another Japanese base. The TF assigned to occupy Midway does not arrive at Midway for over 10 days. (In the meantime the IJN CV pound Midway)

Turn 1 is very complex. In order to mount an offensive towards Canton Island for example I need to find base forces and engineers. These units require approx 10 days to arrive at Kwajalein and are still 5-6 days from Canton. The ground assault troops are already at Kwajalein and by loading onto 14 knot ships can debark on the 7th. But as was seen in previous game they fail to capture the Island (because they unload too slow) So I have to use the slower smaller AP in order to land fast enough. (rather then place a 3k SNLF on a 4.5k AP I load it onto 3x1.5k AP) Johnston Island was an experimental use of the old 4.5k 14kt loading. Luganville is an unopposed landing. It really would make no difference to me if the TF arrived on the 8th the 9th or the 10th. I intend to mix up where and when I send TF's. I have played KID at least 3 prior war starts and I didn't want to just do the same old thing in the same old way and make it easy for him to understand what I was doing. I should point out that the units that capture these empty bases reload and go home. Johnston Island was a problem because the AP could not reload the unit so over half of it was left behind.

[TIMJOT]

Mogami

Thanks for the clarification. So I take it you could basically do the same strategy by using small Sub transported SNLFs if you wanted to.

I'm curious though you mentioned in the other thread that there is nothing to spot your TF between Kwajalien and Luganville. IIRC, shouldn't there be a Aussie Hudson squadron based at Rabaul on Dec 7th?

[Joel Billings]

I would like to point out a few things. First, for those wanting to get a historical first turn, they should play with the Historical First Turn preference option set to On and the December 7th Surprise rule set to On. The Japanese will undergo historical operations. If however you wish to set the Historical First Turn option Off, then both sides are free to take any actions on turn 1. Yes, the Japanese get extra movement, but the US player can take many actions to hinder these moves. In the AAR you are reading between Kid and Mogami, they elected to play with Historical First Turn Off, but then they agreed on a house rule that the Allied player would give no orders on turn 1. This is a house rule only. Any number of house rules can be agreed to by the players to limit either player's actions on turn 1. For Mike and I, we'd always play the campaign with the Historical First Turn On so as to get historical pre-war moves (but that's our choice).

[mogami]

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

Mogami

Thanks for the clarification. So I take it you could basically do the same strategy by using small Sub transported SNLFs if you wanted to.

I'm curious though you mentioned in the other thread that there is nothing to spot your TF between Kwajalien and Luganville. IIRC, shouldn't there be a Aussie Hudson squadron based at Rabaul on Dec 7th?

Yes there are Allied aircraft at Rabaul. But they are way out of range to reach Luganville. They did attack the other TF's in the area (without success)


The starting set up I prefer at this point is Japanese first turn entered by Japanese player. I do not bomb any port except for PH.

Allied player is free to give orders to China, and any base outside LBA of Japanese. He can issue orders to any TF at sea. He can form TF's at any base outside Japanese LBA. (This is to prevent Japanese player from setting groups to Naval Attack on turn 1. Since Japanese give up bombing ports Allied player does not form TF's. )I guess the best way would be to allow both. Except for PH. After the 3 tests without PH strike I think it is safe to say Japan will not last very long if they do not hit PH. They cannot cover the Central and South Pacific and take over the SRA with the US Navy on the flank (Duh)

There is not enough fuel and supply in the outer bases to sustain operations (or mount very large ones)
I think those that are worried about enhanced Japanese early abiltiy or over rating these early movements. I don't think they will remain in the finished plan in their present form. (But there will always be activity away from the SRA by me to keep the enemy guessing where the real blows will land. I don't like to assemble large herds of transports and massive support TF's. I prefer to attack in waves.
It should be noted I attack backwards. I move to the far point first and then back towards one of my major bases. The idea is, once I move the enemy will react towards that movement but find I have moved back into more easy supportable range. I don't mind if the outer bases are recaptured because now I have a new target (the land unit that retook the base) The next step is to isolate it and then kill it. I'm interested in enemy units not enemy bases.

[Mark VII]

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I would like to point out a few things. First, for those wanting to get a historical first turn, they should play with the Historical First Turn preference option set to On and the December 7th Surprise rule set to On. The Japanese will undergo historical operations. If however you wish to set the Historical First Turn option Off, then both sides are free to take any actions on turn 1. Yes, the Japanese get extra movement, but the US player can take many actions to hinder these moves. In the AAR you are reading between Kid and Mogami, they elected to play with Historical First Turn Off, but then they agreed on a house rule that the Allied player would give no orders on turn 1. This is a house rule only. Any number of house rules can be agreed to by the players to limit either player's actions on turn 1. For Mike and I, we'd always play the campaign with the Historical First Turn On so as to get historical pre-war moves (but that's our choice).

Thankyou Joel for pointing out that important detail of how these games are started.[&o]

Players have the option of allowing the Japanese player (with hindsight) three days to redeploy his forces "ala Mogami/Kid" to further hurt/hinder the Allies. Or, a historical start that does not risk "surprise" by early unhistorical movement, thus allowing both sides to then carry on the war after Dec. 7 as they see fit.

I was also somewhat alarmed by the Kid/Mogami AAR and the early movement. The only real IJN movement into the north, central, south Pacific (read Allied/neutral seas) was by Nagumo's strike force that routed its self on a course to avoid known shipping lanes under radio silence all designed to achieve total surprise. Which they did, brillently! Small groups or even single IJN ships wondering around areas that not normal to IJN shipping would of created a problem "with total surprise" if sighted.

Joel's posting should end this discussion about the merits of the Kid/Mogami AAR. It is only an optional start that they are experimenting with. Glad they are working on it. Who knows, it might not even be in the final release if it makes the game to unbalanced.

[:)]These AAR's on scenerios being worked on are wonderful! Most of the questions on the gameplay are also good and relevent. Cannot wait for the game to be released!!![:D]

[Nikademus]

I cant help but have noticed too, that noone was "having a cow" over myself and Pry's AAR which has been rather 'conventional' in nature even though our house rules were almost identical to Kid's and Mogami's

I had 'zero' problem with Pry changing his turn 1 disposition while not moving myself (other than not attacking Singapore harbor....i like being able to play with Prince of Wales and Repulse)

[Mark VII]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I cant help but have noticed too, that noone was "having a cow" over myself and Pry's AAR which has been rather 'conventional' in nature even though our house rules were almost identical to Kid's and Mogami's

I had 'zero' problem with Pry changing his turn 1 disposition while not moving myself (other than not attacking Singapore harbor....i like being able to play with Prince of Wales and Repulse)


FROM BEGINNING OF YOUR AAR:

Conditions/house rules

1.) suprise on
2) IJN sub doctrine off
3) Japan player will not attack Manila or Singapore harbor until 12/10 (turn 2)
4) No movement/orders by Allied player.....(its a suprise attack after all)

Your house rules or AAR did not indicate three days of pre-Dec 7 IJN movement to targets deep in the Central/South Pacific. I think that is what has people are "having cows" over. I have no problem starting a game with the IJN making moves for Dec 7 only, with no counter move from the Allies. That not quite the same as a three day IJN pre-move.

Yours and Pry's test/AAR has mostly caught my attention. I would be interested in a 2-3 day turn game to have some hope of making some headway in a game. Pacwar and its one week turns took many months just to get to 1943. I love to micro-manage in UV but have a feeling I will not have the same time with the millions of units that War in the Pacific brings. Keep up the good work![8D]

[Nikademus]

Your house rules or AAR did not indicate three days of pre-Dec 7 IJN movement to targets deep in the Central/South Pacific. I think that is what has people are "having cows" over. I have no problem starting a game with the IJN making moves for Dec 7 only, with no counter move from the Allies. That not quite the same as a three day IJN pre-move.

Yours and Pry's test/AAR has mostly caught my attention. I would be interested in a 2-3 day turn game to have some hope of making some headway in a game. Pacwar and its one week turns took many months just to get to 1943. I love to micro-manage in UV but have a feeling I will not have the same time with the millions of units that War in the Pacific brings. Keep up the good work![8D]

True, however had Pry wanted too, he could have....and i wouldn't have complained. As it turned out he did a basic rendition of his Scn7 strategy....logical given with all our restarts he'd had time to really work on it! [;)]

the 2-3 day is something i'd been itching to try for a very long time. Like yourself, i'm a micromanagement freak and would always do 1 day for solo play since i can get multiple turns in per session....but as you said....the prospect of playing the LONG campaign by PBEM with an average of 1 turn per day....well that was daunting......i love to wargame the whole pacwar but i have no desire to have to fight it in real time [X(] My schedule too doesn't give me too much opp to be able to exchange turns at the rate Mogami often can thus....multi day seemed the only option for me.

Obviously there have been some sacrifices but overall i can say with all honesty that this is hands down the most enjoyable PBEM experience i have had.....after only a week's exchange we are more than a month into the war and at this rate will soon be into Feb and March 42.....in one sense we are litterally boldly going where noone has gone before because by the time we get somewhere in playtest using 1days, a new build comes out and we have to start over again.

For this kind of pace and the pleasure of playing against a human vs a predictable AI, i'm willing to sacrifice some control....and even there its been a little fun as it has produced some wonderfully historical like situations resulting from TF's reacting.....counterreacting, and being forced to try to anticipate enemy actions vs just 'reacting'.

[Capt. Harlock]

Hmmm... This may just set the record for a thread going "off target".

[Nikademus]

whats off topic? the thread is "pacwar unbalanced?", not "lets argue more about Mogami's strategy" [:'(]

Do you see anything overly "unbalancing" in my and Pry's AAR? Dont see his troops raising the flag over Sulva yet, or Brisbane, or Oahu or Karachi

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

ORIGINAL: TIMJOT

I'm curious though you mentioned in the other thread that there is nothing to spot your TF between Kwajalien and Luganville. IIRC, shouldn't there be a Aussie Hudson squadron based at Rabaul on Dec 7th?

Yes there are Allied aircraft at Rabaul. But they are way out of range to reach Luganville. They did attack the other TF's in the area (without success)

Hi Mogami, I was refering to the possibility of your TF being "spotted" on the way to Luganville. I imagined that you TF must have passed by Rabaul to get from Luganville from Kwajalien. I realize its a "free" move, just questioning the likelyhood in the realworld. My point being the SOPAC had much more shipping activity than the CENTPAC not to mention a lot of Allied controlled Islands. Heck even the USN Cruiser Louiville is in the Solomons, escorting a convoy when war breaks out. You might have run into her on your way to Luganville.

Anyway, now that I understand the different start options I dont have a problem with it.

Thanks again for posting your AARs

Regards

[mogami]

Hi, Rabaul is no where near the route a TF from Kwajalein takes to reach Luganville. Are you thinking Lunga?

[TIMJOT]

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Rabaul is no where near the route a TF from Kwajalein takes to reach Luganville. Are you thinking Lunga?

Nope, I was thinking Luganville New Herbrides, but had the UV map on the brain and inadvertently juxtaposed the Marshalls with the Carolinas in my mind. But you would have to get by those wiley phosphate miners on Nauru[:D]

Just curious that single CA that you mention defeats the Luganville move. Would that be the Louiville or is it a ANZAC CA?

[mogami]

Hi, I was not being specific. Actually a single DD could spoil the show. 1 unescorted (or escorted by a PC/PG) 4.5k AP does not require massive force to stop. Remember the Allied player is allowed to give orders before the turn executes.

One of the new changes is that transports that engage in surface combat cease unloading and retire. (if they are still afloat)


To get by Nauru I had the AP sail backwards so it appeared to be returning to Kwajalein (at night, blacked out and running silent except for 1 english speaking sailor who kept wispering "Go to sleep, all is well"