The AAR is a shorter version of a more comprehensive AAR, which you can read here - https://discord.gg/FZ4fuMWGt8 (link should go directly to the correct AAR channel).
This is an AAR for a random server game I am playing against an unknown Axis player. As far as I can tell, the Germany player does not have an account on the matrix forum, so my best guess is he probably got the game through Steam and has never made an account here.
So for this reason, although obviously I have no way of knowing my opponent's true experience & skill level, we can more or less assume that this is a game against a random/representative newish player, perhaps in particular players who got the game on steam.
This AAR will show the daunting scale of the challenge and difficulty that new players can face when playing the Axis.
I am not playing optimally, in particular in tactical/strategic terms, and am intentionally making stupid decisions to not retreat unless it is really unavoidable, and am pointlessly holding some areas with no real strategic value when I could easily retreat to more defensible positions, just because "Stalin insists." As a result, I am taking higher losses than I really need to be taking.
We should keep in mind that the Germany player is not (as far as I know) a highly experienced WITE veteran, so it is true that an experienced player who really knows what they are doing could do better. But how much better, exactly? Enough to really make a difference? And we should equally keep in mind that if I were actually under any pressure, obviously I would be playing differently and, in particular, retreating more and thereby avoiding more losses.
Game rules:
AI Air Assist is ON - as a result of this, Soviet supply is actually worse than it normally would be. The reason is that the AI seems to be constantly moving all my planes to completely different airfields each turn, and each time it does this it destroys all the freight invested in the previous airfield, and sucks up additional freight for the new airfield.
Theater boxes are LOCKED - as a result of this, I have less units on the map than I actually could have. I have a lot of units locked up in the Far East and other theater boxes (which is easily over 100% requirement). A good number of those could be on the map right now if theater boxes were unlocked, so keep in mind that the Red Army could be even more powerful than what you will see in screenshots. They will eventually come to the map anyway, but they could come *earlier.*
We'll start with the situation at the end of Soviet turn 7, that is what confronted our Germany player on turn 8. Although if you want to see stuff from before, you can go look at the more comprehensive AAR (and possibly I might go back later and post a few selected screenshots from earlier turns).
Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Moderator: Joel Billings
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Beethoven1
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Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Last edited by Beethoven1 on Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Beethoven1
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
This AAR will portray lots of bad things happening to Germany. My main point here is not to revel in the woe of Germany, but is that in my opinion, it should not be possible for Soviets to be quite this strong at this stage of the game and to do this well, even if the Germany player is inexperienced. I do think that the game could be considerably more balanced, however, with some tweaks, but this is intended to show the issues in order to hopefully make it easier to come up with appropriate tweaks and improve things. Honestly I feel sort of bad for new Germany players playing multiplayer games currently. I am trying to defend and not retreat, and give opportunities to pocket my units and inflict casualties. But when Soviets are so powerful as they can be currently in early 1941, you can only do so much.
End of Soviet turn 7:
In Estonia, oh Germany player, your Panzergruppe is confronted with a foreboding wall of triple stacked Soviet units on swamps, with forts (although the northernmost hex is clear terrain). But should you break through the triple stacked swamp wall with its ~60 defensive CV, oh Germany player, you will then be confronted with five layers of defense in depth stretching all the way back to Narva. And should your Panzergruppe abandon the push on Narva and seek to attack Pskov instead, then keep in mind many of the Soviet infantry defending Narva can simply be sent down to defend Pskov instead.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
In Pskov, oh Germany player, your infantry shall be confronted with triple stacked Soviet infantry. Honestly, your best bet at this point might actually even be to attack over the major river between Lake Pskov and Lake Peipus against the 3=11 infantry. As a note, the reason why he is only just now nearing Pskov is that he directed all his Panzers towards Riga and focused on clearing the Baltic rail and taking Tallinn on the first few turns.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
To the south of Pskov, oh Germany player, Stalin has ordered that the Red army cling tenaciously, stubbornly, and stupidly, to the what has become known as the "Polotsk Salient." Stalin has become obsessed with this part of the front, despite its lack of any real population, strategic value, or industry, and has ordered no retreat, and that the salient must be held. You might have imagined that Soviets would simply abandon this practically worthless territory, but no. A few times, German infantry has managed to attack across the Daugava river here, but has lacked the movement points to cross it. Some other attacks have failed, and the failed attacks have raised the morale of some Soviet units and given them wins towards Guards status. What is more, the Soviets counterattack you 2 times here and win, even with horrible generals without artillery, and even using some tanks with a general with a level 2 mech rating. Here are those attacks:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
On the land bridge, oh Germany player, you have finally reached the outskirts of Smolensk. For turn after turn, you have kept fighting the same NKVD border guards and airborne brigades on the land bridge. Though you may have routed them away, they had been set on "refit" and kept returning, like Zombies, turn after turn, to be routed again and again. And for turn after turn, you have often been cut off by 35 MP anti-tank brigades and 2000 man "tank" divisions with 15% TOE and practically 0 tanks.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
(it is worth briefly going back to turn 5, to show this screenshot):
On turn 5 there had been not just 1 Great Wall of Smolensk, but 2 Great Walls of Smolensk - the first wall of (primarily) airborne brigades NKVD/etc which Germany routed away, and then behind it Germany had finally barely started to run into the real troops. But Germany was fearful of counterattacks and getting units cut off (from which they had already suffered in previous turns), so they did not go right up to the 2nd great wall, but instead kept slightly back. So on the next turn, the NKVD/airborne/etc appeared once again back in those clear hexes they left open, and Germany had to attack them yet again on turn 6 - this is more or less how we got into this state of affairs).
But now that you have finally waded through all those garbage units and reached Smolensk, oh Germany player, you have found the battle has only just begun. Your infantry, which you had started breaking down into regiments to try to avoid getting cut off, was counterattacked by powerful forces of the Western Front:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You even managed, oh Germany player, to cross the river here with one of your Panzer divisions, but then were immediately counterattacked by hordes of additional Western Front infantry:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Another of your Panzers is also counterattacked by an entirely separate horde of Western Front Infantry:
Notice by the way that I am not even having to particularly use my tanks in these attacks. I have a lot of strong tank/mech divisions in the rear that have barely seen combat.
Yet another one of your Panzers is also counterattacked, oh Germany player. This one can only be attacked by 3 divisions from one direction, but we have more set on reserve to their rear, to hopefully join:
Attack successful:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Soviets then get cocky and try to hasty attack your infantry regiment with a so-so tank division. This one actually holds, barely preventing your other units from being isolated for a turn:
So I guess in this one case, at least the woe is a bit less, Germany player.
The Soviet AFVs, oh Germany player, have barely been used (and also, barely moved), and are sitting at about 12k that can still be unleashed in future turns:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You imagined, oh Germany player, that you could successfully do a hasty attack with an entire motorized division against the minimal opposition from an NKVD border guard:
But then Vatutin joined in the battle with a reserve activation for a division which is 28 times more powerful than the NKKVD border guard you thought you were attacking. And also planes join.
And so your motorized division, oh Germany player, lost more than 10% of its guns (if you count damaged, slightly less than 10% if you only count destroyed).
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Oh Germany player, you thought that zone of control would stop your Panzer from being isolated. But no, you underestimated the movement points of 22 mp Soviet cavalry and 35 mp AT brigade.
Oh woe is you, Germany player, woe is you.
Despite facing such daunting resistance in the north and near Smolensk, oh Germany player, you are also confronted with a continuous front line of defense down past Gomel:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Although you have taken Kiev, oh Germany player, you must still also cross the Dnieper and take Kirovograd, against strong assault front (southwestern front) infantry divisions.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
And even if you were to pocket a few divisions, oh Germany player, numerous 100 CPP high CV, high morale tank and mech divisions with 35 MP lurk behind near Poltava and Dnepropetrovsk, ready to break any pocket you might try to form. These include, but are not limited to:
15 CV, 52 morale, 172 T-34s.
14 CV, 54 morale, although without so many T-34s.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You also face, oh Germany player, strong resistance from a continuous front line of infantry divisions stretching all the way down to Kherson, which is defended by strong units in swamp/city terrain blocking your path across the Dnieper:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
This Southwestern Front infantry also counterattacked in several places, in each case targeting Romanians and Slovakians for easy wins for future Guards divisions:
red = retreated a Hungarian cav 2x in a row
blue = retreated the Slovakian mobile brigade, then attacked it again which routed it. This is the 2nd time so far I have routed the Slovakian mobile brigade.
red = routed some Romanians (a cav and 2 infantry regiments)
Oh woe are the Hungarians, Slovakians, and Romanians, oh woe are they, for they are Axis minors, which melt upon first contact with the Red Army.
Losses from just the attacks on Axis minors were more than 6 to 1 in favor of Soviets:
Actually, this may not really be woe to you, because if you have fewer Axis minor troops to supply, that means more supply for the Germans.
Meanwhile in Odessa, oh Germany player, you face not merely a city fort, but Soviets also fortified the 4 hexes surrounding Odessa as well, and have been defending them with stacks of 3 units:
The Soviet defenders of Odessa have periodically also been routing the Romanians who have been besieging Odessa, merely by doing deliberate attacks with Soviet infantry, with 0 artillery support.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Note, defending Odessa like this is really not an intelligent idea, it is simply a way I was trying to give stupid orders like Stalin historically did, in order to try to help make the game more balanced.
End of Soviet turn 7:
In Estonia, oh Germany player, your Panzergruppe is confronted with a foreboding wall of triple stacked Soviet units on swamps, with forts (although the northernmost hex is clear terrain). But should you break through the triple stacked swamp wall with its ~60 defensive CV, oh Germany player, you will then be confronted with five layers of defense in depth stretching all the way back to Narva. And should your Panzergruppe abandon the push on Narva and seek to attack Pskov instead, then keep in mind many of the Soviet infantry defending Narva can simply be sent down to defend Pskov instead.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
In Pskov, oh Germany player, your infantry shall be confronted with triple stacked Soviet infantry. Honestly, your best bet at this point might actually even be to attack over the major river between Lake Pskov and Lake Peipus against the 3=11 infantry. As a note, the reason why he is only just now nearing Pskov is that he directed all his Panzers towards Riga and focused on clearing the Baltic rail and taking Tallinn on the first few turns.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
To the south of Pskov, oh Germany player, Stalin has ordered that the Red army cling tenaciously, stubbornly, and stupidly, to the what has become known as the "Polotsk Salient." Stalin has become obsessed with this part of the front, despite its lack of any real population, strategic value, or industry, and has ordered no retreat, and that the salient must be held. You might have imagined that Soviets would simply abandon this practically worthless territory, but no. A few times, German infantry has managed to attack across the Daugava river here, but has lacked the movement points to cross it. Some other attacks have failed, and the failed attacks have raised the morale of some Soviet units and given them wins towards Guards status. What is more, the Soviets counterattack you 2 times here and win, even with horrible generals without artillery, and even using some tanks with a general with a level 2 mech rating. Here are those attacks:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
On the land bridge, oh Germany player, you have finally reached the outskirts of Smolensk. For turn after turn, you have kept fighting the same NKVD border guards and airborne brigades on the land bridge. Though you may have routed them away, they had been set on "refit" and kept returning, like Zombies, turn after turn, to be routed again and again. And for turn after turn, you have often been cut off by 35 MP anti-tank brigades and 2000 man "tank" divisions with 15% TOE and practically 0 tanks.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
(it is worth briefly going back to turn 5, to show this screenshot):
On turn 5 there had been not just 1 Great Wall of Smolensk, but 2 Great Walls of Smolensk - the first wall of (primarily) airborne brigades NKVD/etc which Germany routed away, and then behind it Germany had finally barely started to run into the real troops. But Germany was fearful of counterattacks and getting units cut off (from which they had already suffered in previous turns), so they did not go right up to the 2nd great wall, but instead kept slightly back. So on the next turn, the NKVD/airborne/etc appeared once again back in those clear hexes they left open, and Germany had to attack them yet again on turn 6 - this is more or less how we got into this state of affairs).
But now that you have finally waded through all those garbage units and reached Smolensk, oh Germany player, you have found the battle has only just begun. Your infantry, which you had started breaking down into regiments to try to avoid getting cut off, was counterattacked by powerful forces of the Western Front:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You even managed, oh Germany player, to cross the river here with one of your Panzer divisions, but then were immediately counterattacked by hordes of additional Western Front infantry:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Another of your Panzers is also counterattacked by an entirely separate horde of Western Front Infantry:
Notice by the way that I am not even having to particularly use my tanks in these attacks. I have a lot of strong tank/mech divisions in the rear that have barely seen combat.
Yet another one of your Panzers is also counterattacked, oh Germany player. This one can only be attacked by 3 divisions from one direction, but we have more set on reserve to their rear, to hopefully join:
Attack successful:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Soviets then get cocky and try to hasty attack your infantry regiment with a so-so tank division. This one actually holds, barely preventing your other units from being isolated for a turn:
So I guess in this one case, at least the woe is a bit less, Germany player.
The Soviet AFVs, oh Germany player, have barely been used (and also, barely moved), and are sitting at about 12k that can still be unleashed in future turns:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You imagined, oh Germany player, that you could successfully do a hasty attack with an entire motorized division against the minimal opposition from an NKVD border guard:
But then Vatutin joined in the battle with a reserve activation for a division which is 28 times more powerful than the NKKVD border guard you thought you were attacking. And also planes join.
And so your motorized division, oh Germany player, lost more than 10% of its guns (if you count damaged, slightly less than 10% if you only count destroyed).
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Oh Germany player, you thought that zone of control would stop your Panzer from being isolated. But no, you underestimated the movement points of 22 mp Soviet cavalry and 35 mp AT brigade.
Oh woe is you, Germany player, woe is you.
Despite facing such daunting resistance in the north and near Smolensk, oh Germany player, you are also confronted with a continuous front line of defense down past Gomel:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Although you have taken Kiev, oh Germany player, you must still also cross the Dnieper and take Kirovograd, against strong assault front (southwestern front) infantry divisions.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
And even if you were to pocket a few divisions, oh Germany player, numerous 100 CPP high CV, high morale tank and mech divisions with 35 MP lurk behind near Poltava and Dnepropetrovsk, ready to break any pocket you might try to form. These include, but are not limited to:
15 CV, 52 morale, 172 T-34s.
14 CV, 54 morale, although without so many T-34s.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
You also face, oh Germany player, strong resistance from a continuous front line of infantry divisions stretching all the way down to Kherson, which is defended by strong units in swamp/city terrain blocking your path across the Dnieper:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
This Southwestern Front infantry also counterattacked in several places, in each case targeting Romanians and Slovakians for easy wins for future Guards divisions:
red = retreated a Hungarian cav 2x in a row
blue = retreated the Slovakian mobile brigade, then attacked it again which routed it. This is the 2nd time so far I have routed the Slovakian mobile brigade.
red = routed some Romanians (a cav and 2 infantry regiments)
Oh woe are the Hungarians, Slovakians, and Romanians, oh woe are they, for they are Axis minors, which melt upon first contact with the Red Army.
Losses from just the attacks on Axis minors were more than 6 to 1 in favor of Soviets:
Actually, this may not really be woe to you, because if you have fewer Axis minor troops to supply, that means more supply for the Germans.
Meanwhile in Odessa, oh Germany player, you face not merely a city fort, but Soviets also fortified the 4 hexes surrounding Odessa as well, and have been defending them with stacks of 3 units:
The Soviet defenders of Odessa have periodically also been routing the Romanians who have been besieging Odessa, merely by doing deliberate attacks with Soviet infantry, with 0 artillery support.
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
Note, defending Odessa like this is really not an intelligent idea, it is simply a way I was trying to give stupid orders like Stalin historically did, in order to try to help make the game more balanced.
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Beethoven1
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Turn 8 highlights:
Fun with cavalry. Oh Germany player, you thought that ZOC would stop cavalry from running amok. Germany, oh Germany player, you thought wrong, and woe is unto you:
At this point, I consulted Hardradi's movement point spreadsheet, which said it should cost me 3 MP to move one hex to the left from that last one. Hardradi's spreadsheet was correct:
Oh Germany player, woe is you, even assuming you were not repairing that rail (I don't think they were, but can't be sure).
You thought you could hasty attack the 2nd Airborne Brigade, oh Germany player. After all, it is a weak unit. But no, the 2nd Airborne Brigade got 3 holds in a row with reserve activations + hasty attacks. Good job airborne brigade, for calling in your bigger, much stronger friends to help!
I got various other cases of the same thing happening, e.g. this:
It also happened in other battles, too many to bother screenshoting them all.
Oh Germany player, woe is you.
You thought you had contained Nikolaev, oh Germany player. And my units were isolated in Nikkolaev (I thought they would have supply by sea, but apparently not through the ferry hexes). However, this isolation did not need to stop us from routing one Romanian unit:
And also beating the one of the best Romanian units, their armored division:
Woe is to the Romanians, oh woe are they.
Oh Germany player, you thought I would stop attacking the Romanians besieging Odessa. You did actually get a hold on one battle - presumably due to this reserve activation. But in the others, the Romanians routed:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... height=575
Woe is to the Romanians, oh woe are they.
You thought you had finally consolidated your position on the land bridge, oh Germany player... You also crossed the Dauava near Vitebsk on not one but two hexes. But alas, the Soviets let forth another flurry of powerful counterattacks, and in the process liberated Mogilev:
In total, these counterattacks just purely in the center added up to:
1 Panzer division routed
2 Panzer divisions retreated
3 Motorized divisions retreated
4 infantry divisions retreated (half of which was broken into 6 regiments, half was 2 full divisions)
I think this amounts to pretty close to an entire Panzergruppe that was beaten by a counterattack??
In none of these counterattacks did I even have to use my strong tanks/mech, and numerous tank/mech divisions with double digit CVs, or close to it, remain.
Oh Germany player, woe is you:
The liberation of Mogilev:
The mech given the job of leading the liberation is unready and has 1 CV, so not much will be lost when it is inevitably routed (or maybe isolated), but it does have 32 MP:
Before moving, Mogilev has 5 population, 4 manpower
A bunch of civilians were hurriedly rushed out of the city and brought through the middle of he combat zone to safety in Chelyabinsk, so the manpower dropped to 3
Additional attacks:
The German bridgehead over the Daugava is pushed back to Vitebsk:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
The 158th infantry division already has 9 wins. It would be a Guards division already, except I think the earliest they can become Guards is October or so:
Overall, Soviets have 34 divisions on map with 55 or higher morale, and 5 with 60 or higher. This does not include the various mountaineers in theater boxes etc or cav (since cav are not really true "divisions"). These high morale divisions have all been more or less constantly refitting, so they all for the most part have high TOE:
As I keep getting wins with my attacks, the morale of my divisions continues to go up, also. The reason I have so many high morale divisions is not just that I have been careful with the high morale divisions, but also is that I keep getting wins which create new high morale divisions. And eventually, that will mean high morale Guards.
Fun with cavalry. Oh Germany player, you thought that ZOC would stop cavalry from running amok. Germany, oh Germany player, you thought wrong, and woe is unto you:
At this point, I consulted Hardradi's movement point spreadsheet, which said it should cost me 3 MP to move one hex to the left from that last one. Hardradi's spreadsheet was correct:
Oh Germany player, woe is you, even assuming you were not repairing that rail (I don't think they were, but can't be sure).
You thought you could hasty attack the 2nd Airborne Brigade, oh Germany player. After all, it is a weak unit. But no, the 2nd Airborne Brigade got 3 holds in a row with reserve activations + hasty attacks. Good job airborne brigade, for calling in your bigger, much stronger friends to help!
I got various other cases of the same thing happening, e.g. this:
It also happened in other battles, too many to bother screenshoting them all.
Oh Germany player, woe is you.
You thought you had contained Nikolaev, oh Germany player. And my units were isolated in Nikkolaev (I thought they would have supply by sea, but apparently not through the ferry hexes). However, this isolation did not need to stop us from routing one Romanian unit:
And also beating the one of the best Romanian units, their armored division:
Woe is to the Romanians, oh woe are they.
Oh Germany player, you thought I would stop attacking the Romanians besieging Odessa. You did actually get a hold on one battle - presumably due to this reserve activation. But in the others, the Romanians routed:
https://media.discordapp.net/attachment ... height=575
Woe is to the Romanians, oh woe are they.
You thought you had finally consolidated your position on the land bridge, oh Germany player... You also crossed the Dauava near Vitebsk on not one but two hexes. But alas, the Soviets let forth another flurry of powerful counterattacks, and in the process liberated Mogilev:
In total, these counterattacks just purely in the center added up to:
1 Panzer division routed
2 Panzer divisions retreated
3 Motorized divisions retreated
4 infantry divisions retreated (half of which was broken into 6 regiments, half was 2 full divisions)
I think this amounts to pretty close to an entire Panzergruppe that was beaten by a counterattack??
In none of these counterattacks did I even have to use my strong tanks/mech, and numerous tank/mech divisions with double digit CVs, or close to it, remain.
Oh Germany player, woe is you:
The liberation of Mogilev:
The mech given the job of leading the liberation is unready and has 1 CV, so not much will be lost when it is inevitably routed (or maybe isolated), but it does have 32 MP:
Before moving, Mogilev has 5 population, 4 manpower
A bunch of civilians were hurriedly rushed out of the city and brought through the middle of he combat zone to safety in Chelyabinsk, so the manpower dropped to 3
Additional attacks:
The German bridgehead over the Daugava is pushed back to Vitebsk:
Oh woe is you, Germany player.
The 158th infantry division already has 9 wins. It would be a Guards division already, except I think the earliest they can become Guards is October or so:
Overall, Soviets have 34 divisions on map with 55 or higher morale, and 5 with 60 or higher. This does not include the various mountaineers in theater boxes etc or cav (since cav are not really true "divisions"). These high morale divisions have all been more or less constantly refitting, so they all for the most part have high TOE:
As I keep getting wins with my attacks, the morale of my divisions continues to go up, also. The reason I have so many high morale divisions is not just that I have been careful with the high morale divisions, but also is that I keep getting wins which create new high morale divisions. And eventually, that will mean high morale Guards.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
You made me laugh thanksBeethoven1 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:02 pm Actually, this may not really be woe to you, because if you have fewer Axis minor troops to supply, that means more supply for the Germans.
Can't see the image however.
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Joel Billings
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
I haven't read the entire AAR, but wanted to comment on your question of how much better a good player would be versus and experienced player. Ask the same question about a game of chess (in some ways a simpler game than WitE2). I would expect an experienced chess player to blow out a novice player, and I would expect nothing less with WitE2. Look no further than the game of Rosencrancrantus vs Tyronec to see what a good German player can do (a game between two experienced players). This game is much harder for a novice German player to pick up and play well compared to a novice Soviet player, at least in 1941. That's the nature of this beast. In games between two novice players, I'd want to have them bid morale help level for side, so the German player would get a bit of help. Only as the German player gains skill can he hope to match an equally skilled Soviet player in 1941. That's my 2 cents.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
While I do agree skill / competence levels impact a lot; there are so many mechanics and layers right now that eskew the game favoring the Soviet.
Beethoven is doing mostly a 'show' of all what is wrong and how it can be (ab)used.
In this case it is well possible a novice player tosses the game away as well - if on their first or second MP game they see the Soviets -THAT- capable in '41.
Beethoven is doing mostly a 'show' of all what is wrong and how it can be (ab)used.
In this case it is well possible a novice player tosses the game away as well - if on their first or second MP game they see the Soviets -THAT- capable in '41.
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Beethoven1
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Obviously there is a lot of truth to what you say about an experienced player beating a novice. And clearly, I was not going into this game expecting to lose. However, there is always a question of degree, of just how quickly and easily the experienced player wins.Joel Billings wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 3:39 pm I haven't read the entire AAR, but wanted to comment on your question of how much better a good player would be versus and experienced player. Ask the same question about a game of chess (in some ways a simpler game than WitE2). I would expect an experienced chess player to blow out a novice player, and I would expect nothing less with WitE2. Look no further than the game of Rosencrancrantus vs Tyronec to see what a good German player can do (a game between two experienced players). This game is much harder for a novice German player to pick up and play well compared to a novice Soviet player, at least in 1941. That's the nature of this beast. In games between two novice players, I'd want to have them bid morale help level for side, so the German player would get a bit of help. Only as the German player gains skill can he hope to match an equally skilled Soviet player in 1941. That's my 2 cents.
In chess, it is possible for a very good player to checkmate an inexperienced player as quickly as 2-4 turns or so, and win the game.
https://www.chess.com/article/view/fast ... checkmates
I don't think the same really is, or should, be quite true to the same degree in WITE2 of an inexperienced Germany player vs an experienced Soviet player. Soviets obviously cannot win that quickly. Axis has to be < 525 VPs on turn 29 for a Soviet sudden win, which is fairly close to impossible I would say. Even in this game where I am doing quite well, the Red Army is in realistic terms still getting beaten soundly at this point in the game, and is steadily losing ground. The earliest Soviets can realistically win would be 1943 or so.
As for Germans, they can win more quickly in theory, but even that is very difficult (I would say essentially impossible against an experienced Soviet player that doesn't make bad strategic decisions purely out of a desire to play-act historically). Many of the AARs where Germany has won in 1941 have not had Germany actually even technically winning, but rather the Soviet players just giving up.
I am not saying that a novice player should be able to take Rzhev/Orel/Stalino/etc against an experienced Soviet player, but they should at least be able to take Smolensk/Pskov/etc fairly easily. And he will indeed take them, but only will take them way late.
Since the part about the Rosencrantus vs Tyronec game is really about their game rather than this one, I will reply about that part in Rosencrantus' AAR thread.
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Beethoven1
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Just a quick little update after another 3 turns (this is at the end of Soviet turn 11 now). The front line has barely moved since our last update, other than very slightly towards Dnepropetrovsk. Near Smolensk in particular, prudence forced Germany to withdraw back into the land bridge, a safer distance from powerful Soviet forces. Each turn he would take a few hexes near Smolensk, and then I would counterattack and push him back, leaving the control of land more or less the same, but with German units becoming weaker after losing multiple battles.
Only a few hexes taken in the north, the Narva river not reached despite an entire Panzergruppe there:
I did a few counterattacks near Pskov. Generally he has adopted a defensive posture here at this point, and there is no sign that Pskov is in any immediate danger, although obviously he is right next to it, but the Soviet units triple stacked in forts are pretty strong.
The Polotsk salient was expanded a bit more with another attack - he does not really have enough units there to hold, and regiments just die against counterattacks. However, the main story is over towards the right side of the screenshot, where you can see from the combat delays I counterattacked (successfully) basically his entire front near Smolensk. A lot of German Panzer/motorized have been pretty badly mauled by this point, and obviously with limited ability to get replacements.
Here is the one area where I have to retreat. I just can't sustain deliberate attacks from so much German infantry indefinitely:
Clinging to the Dnieper as best as I can. He did finally get across near Kyiv, so I am pulling back slightly there:
You can see a few more counterattacks here:
Odessa still holds. I don't think it would if he did naval interdiction though. I did some counterattacks against Romanians/Italians near Kherson. Frankly I could have attacked more, but I would at this point probably rather just build forts in the swamps. The losses inflicted by counterattacks against Romanians help Axis supply, since each attack can mean thousands less Romanians to send supplies to than before:
At this point it has been more than 2 weeks and starting to get close to 3 weeks without Germany doing turn 12, so this game will probably be over at this point unless he suddenly does the turn.
But basically Barbarossa seems to have stalled at a Pskov-Smolensk-Dnieper line, and if the game were to go on there would only be another 5 or so turns for Germany to make progress until mud hits.
Things would have gone at least somewhat better for Germany with the CPP changes though, because a lot of what slowed his momentum was CPP loss against weak Soviet sacrificial units, I think. And also, he attacked even weak units with full divisions rather than regiments, which is punished less under the new .39 patch.
Only a few hexes taken in the north, the Narva river not reached despite an entire Panzergruppe there:
I did a few counterattacks near Pskov. Generally he has adopted a defensive posture here at this point, and there is no sign that Pskov is in any immediate danger, although obviously he is right next to it, but the Soviet units triple stacked in forts are pretty strong.
The Polotsk salient was expanded a bit more with another attack - he does not really have enough units there to hold, and regiments just die against counterattacks. However, the main story is over towards the right side of the screenshot, where you can see from the combat delays I counterattacked (successfully) basically his entire front near Smolensk. A lot of German Panzer/motorized have been pretty badly mauled by this point, and obviously with limited ability to get replacements.
Here is the one area where I have to retreat. I just can't sustain deliberate attacks from so much German infantry indefinitely:
Clinging to the Dnieper as best as I can. He did finally get across near Kyiv, so I am pulling back slightly there:
You can see a few more counterattacks here:
Odessa still holds. I don't think it would if he did naval interdiction though. I did some counterattacks against Romanians/Italians near Kherson. Frankly I could have attacked more, but I would at this point probably rather just build forts in the swamps. The losses inflicted by counterattacks against Romanians help Axis supply, since each attack can mean thousands less Romanians to send supplies to than before:
At this point it has been more than 2 weeks and starting to get close to 3 weeks without Germany doing turn 12, so this game will probably be over at this point unless he suddenly does the turn.
But basically Barbarossa seems to have stalled at a Pskov-Smolensk-Dnieper line, and if the game were to go on there would only be another 5 or so turns for Germany to make progress until mud hits.
Things would have gone at least somewhat better for Germany with the CPP changes though, because a lot of what slowed his momentum was CPP loss against weak Soviet sacrificial units, I think. And also, he attacked even weak units with full divisions rather than regiments, which is punished less under the new .39 patch.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
How was this even enjoyable to play, let alone boast about kicking the snot out of the proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair?
Congrats, you wiped the floor with a noob.
Congrats, you wiped the floor with a noob.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
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Beethoven1
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Hmm.Rusty1961 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:15 pm How was this even enjoyable to play, let alone boast about kicking the snot out of the proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair?
Congrats, you wiped the floor with a noob.
I think you are probably kinda-sorta misunderstanding.
I started this game right after tyronec quit the game which I had started with him on turn 2. Why did I start this game? Because I just wanted to play the game, and I was willing to play whatever random opponent there was that had a server game in order to get a game going.
This doesn't mean that I wanted to play an inexperienced opponent per se. Indeed, I did want to play an experienced opponent, which is why I tried to play tyronec (and why I am playing HLYA now). But an inexperienced opponent is better than no opponent at all - which is what my attempt to play an experienced opponent such as tyronec had just yielded me.
As far as "boasting," goes, I didn't start this AAR to "boast." I normally do AARs for all my games. If anything, this was was different because I didn't do updates for every single turn (at least here on the forum), because it didn't seem worthwhile. However, I did think it was worthwhile to post an AAR, because there are quite a few AARs showing an experienced Axis player beating an inexperienced Soviet player. And if people only post AARs when Axis does well, then that helped promote a false impression that the game is balanced or even Axis biased. Which means that balance would have been less likely to be improved.
As far as my opponent being a "proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair," I think that if anything the argument I was making in this AAR was that the game (at leas with that patch prior to the CPP changes), was too difficult for Axis. So I don't think my opponent's problem was that he was a "retarded kid in the wheel chair" as you so... well... as you put it, I think the real problem was the game was balanced so that it was too difficult for Axis in 1941.
So I think you should reconsider the thought process that led you to make your comment.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
I accept your explanation, but so you know as someone who doesn't know you or your humor it appeared to be braggadocios.Beethoven1 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:15 amHmm.Rusty1961 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:15 pm How was this even enjoyable to play, let alone boast about kicking the snot out of the proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair?
Congrats, you wiped the floor with a noob.
I think you are probably kinda-sorta misunderstanding.
I started this game right after tyronec quit the game which I had started with him on turn 2. Why did I start this game? Because I just wanted to play the game, and I was willing to play whatever random opponent there was that had a server game in order to get a game going.
This doesn't mean that I wanted to play an inexperienced opponent per se. Indeed, I did want to play an experienced opponent, which is why I tried to play tyronec (and why I am playing HLYA now). But an inexperienced opponent is better than no opponent at all - which is what my attempt to play an experienced opponent such as tyronec had just yielded me.
As far as "boasting," goes, I didn't start this AAR to "boast." I normally do AARs for all my games. If anything, this was was different because I didn't do updates for every single turn (at least here on the forum), because it didn't seem worthwhile. However, I did think it was worthwhile to post an AAR, because there are quite a few AARs showing an experienced Axis player beating an inexperienced Soviet player. And if people only post AARs when Axis does well, then that helped promote a false impression that the game is balanced or even Axis biased. Which means that balance would have been less likely to be improved.
As far as my opponent being a "proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair," I think that if anything the argument I was making in this AAR was that the game (at leas with that patch prior to the CPP changes), was too difficult for Axis. So I don't think my opponent's problem was that he was a "retarded kid in the wheel chair" as you so... well... as you put it, I think the real problem was the game was balanced so that it was too difficult for Axis in 1941.
So I think you should reconsider the thought process that led you to make your comment.
God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Not to me it didn't. I read it pretty much as Beethoven explained it.Rusty1961 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:34 amI accept your explanation, but so you know as someone who doesn't know you or your humor it appeared to be braggadocios.Beethoven1 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 3:15 amHmm.Rusty1961 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 11:15 pm How was this even enjoyable to play, let alone boast about kicking the snot out of the proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair?
Congrats, you wiped the floor with a noob.
I think you are probably kinda-sorta misunderstanding.
I started this game right after tyronec quit the game which I had started with him on turn 2. Why did I start this game? Because I just wanted to play the game, and I was willing to play whatever random opponent there was that had a server game in order to get a game going.
This doesn't mean that I wanted to play an inexperienced opponent per se. Indeed, I did want to play an experienced opponent, which is why I tried to play tyronec (and why I am playing HLYA now). But an inexperienced opponent is better than no opponent at all - which is what my attempt to play an experienced opponent such as tyronec had just yielded me.
As far as "boasting," goes, I didn't start this AAR to "boast." I normally do AARs for all my games. If anything, this was was different because I didn't do updates for every single turn (at least here on the forum), because it didn't seem worthwhile. However, I did think it was worthwhile to post an AAR, because there are quite a few AARs showing an experienced Axis player beating an inexperienced Soviet player. And if people only post AARs when Axis does well, then that helped promote a false impression that the game is balanced or even Axis biased. Which means that balance would have been less likely to be improved.
As far as my opponent being a "proverbial retarded kid in the wheel chair," I think that if anything the argument I was making in this AAR was that the game (at leas with that patch prior to the CPP changes), was too difficult for Axis. So I don't think my opponent's problem was that he was a "retarded kid in the wheel chair" as you so... well... as you put it, I think the real problem was the game was balanced so that it was too difficult for Axis in 1941.
So I think you should reconsider the thought process that led you to make your comment.
I thank him for trying to get the balance for the Axis in '41 improved.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Same here. Thanks Beethoven for your help testing and improving the game balance.Wild wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:44 amNot to me it didn't. I read it pretty much as Beethoven explained it.Rusty1961 wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 2:34 am
I accept your explanation, but so you know as someone who doesn't know you or your humor it appeared to be braggadocios.
I thank him for trying to get the balance for the Axis in '41 improved.
Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Great AAR and post style Beethoven! I like that you are very calmly showing issues with the system in a fun to read way.
The latest changes are pushing the game in the right direction from what I can tell but time will tell. Thanks for the post!
The latest changes are pushing the game in the right direction from what I can tell but time will tell. Thanks for the post!
AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
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AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
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WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator
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AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Beethoven has a love for the game and desire to see a balance in the game. I too stand with you Xhoel in what you wrote. You only have to read the 2nd post of this AAR where Beethoven specifically said the following,xhoel wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:04 pm Great AAR and post style Beethoven! I like that you are very calmly showing issues with the system in a fun to read way.
The latest changes are pushing the game in the right direction from what I can tell but time will tell. Thanks for the post!
You can plainly see this is a plea crying out in the wilderness for eyes to look at the Germans.beethoven1 wrote: This AAR will portray lots of bad things happening to Germany. My main point here is not to revel in the woe of Germany, but is that in my opinion, it should not be possible for Soviets to be quite this strong at this stage of the game and to do this well, even if the Germany player is inexperienced. I do think that the game could be considerably more balanced, however, with some tweaks, but this is intended to show the issues in order to hopefully make it easier to come up with appropriate tweaks and improve things. Honestly I feel sort of bad for new Germany players playing multiplayer games currently. I am trying to defend and not retreat, and give opportunities to pocket my units and inflict casualties. But when Soviets are so powerful as they can be currently in early 1941, you can only do so much.
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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HardLuckYetAgain
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
I can tell the changes are in the right direction since Beethoven has been very vocal about those changes in my hands in our game on Beethovens vs HLYA Discord channel(my channel since I can't see his but I can only guess that it is there too). You should see it, come join us in "real time" conversations on Beethoven vs HLYA game, or anyone else that wants toxhoel wrote: Sat Aug 27, 2022 3:04 pm The latest changes are pushing the game in the right direction from what I can tell but time will tell. Thanks for the post!
But I am sure Beethoven will still kick my butt ;-P Or you can wait for the update here in "slow time".German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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NotOneStepBack
- Posts: 917
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
I'm new-ish to WITE2 -- I was a beta tester but then couldn't continue due to life reasons and recently picked the game back up in multi playing as Axis.
I was stopped hard at Pskov and some other similar points as to this game too --- and I played WITE for a decade. It definitely is an uphill battle in '41 at least from my experience. But it's hard to say if the game is not balanced or if it is, I just think it would be helpful to have more guides for new players if it IS balanced. This game is a beast and understanding it takes a significant amount of time.
I think part of the issue is I find the game at times to be opaque in its feedback to the player which would help immensely in understanding what is going on "under the hood".
I was stopped hard at Pskov and some other similar points as to this game too --- and I played WITE for a decade. It definitely is an uphill battle in '41 at least from my experience. But it's hard to say if the game is not balanced or if it is, I just think it would be helpful to have more guides for new players if it IS balanced. This game is a beast and understanding it takes a significant amount of time.
I think part of the issue is I find the game at times to be opaque in its feedback to the player which would help immensely in understanding what is going on "under the hood".
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HardLuckYetAgain
- Posts: 8989
- Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am
Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Good Luck with Germany. I would never play them, Woe to you Sir!NotOneStepBack wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:09 pm I'm new-ish to WITE2 -- I was a beta tester but then couldn't continue due to life reasons and recently picked the game back up in multi playing as Axis.
I was stopped hard at Pskov and some other similar points as to this game too --- and I played WITE for a decade. It definitely is an uphill battle in '41 at least from my experience. But it's hard to say if the game is not balanced or if it is, I just think it would be helpful to have more guides for new players if it IS balanced. This game is a beast and understanding it takes a significant amount of time.
I think part of the issue is I find the game at times to be opaque in its feedback to the player which would help immensely in understanding what is going on "under the hood".
All kidding aside welcome back and reach out any time. I volunteer Beethoven services for free. Or come join us on discord with answers pretty quick
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
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NotOneStepBack
- Posts: 917
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Re: Oh Woe is You, Germany Player
Thanks, I'm on the discord as Gamble8624. I'll have to update my name on the server if i canHardLuckYetAgain wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 8:39 pmGood Luck with Germany. I would never play them, Woe to you Sir!NotOneStepBack wrote: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:09 pm I'm new-ish to WITE2 -- I was a beta tester but then couldn't continue due to life reasons and recently picked the game back up in multi playing as Axis.
I was stopped hard at Pskov and some other similar points as to this game too --- and I played WITE for a decade. It definitely is an uphill battle in '41 at least from my experience. But it's hard to say if the game is not balanced or if it is, I just think it would be helpful to have more guides for new players if it IS balanced. This game is a beast and understanding it takes a significant amount of time.
I think part of the issue is I find the game at times to be opaque in its feedback to the player which would help immensely in understanding what is going on "under the hood".
All kidding aside welcome back and reach out any time. I volunteer Beethoven services for free. Or come join us on discord with answers pretty quick