Nikademus Val Bomb info...

[Brady]

D3A2, from the Nagoya NAG (tail code characters read Na Ko), this unit was for land and Carrier traing for Vals and Kates, in service from 4/1/42 to 8/45.




Previously posted Pick, shows D3A2's, unknow unit, 42 or later(type and paint scheam donte this), all bombed up and looking for love, location unknow, though it looks like the war Zone and a not training base, which were typicaly large well built up airfields.

[Brady]

From Smiths Book:





Below Priviously posted, D3A1, taking off from what is most certainly the Akagi, collor scheam looks to be Type 0, one collor over all (except antiglar engine cowling), Collor is Either Medieum Gray, or light gray, if the former it is 42 ish (which matches with the Akaki Island configuration shwon in the pic), or the later (light gray) which would place the time frame between 38-43, dificult to tell, though the tower and the first schem seam to be in sink:

[SouthernAP]

First off sorry to those with slow connections.

D3A's taking off from a carrier. No visable references to 60kg bombs on the wings


A D3A1 in flight somewere with only a 250kg bomb


D3A's taking off from a carrier with only a 250kg bomb


D3A inflight with only a 250kg


D3A infligth with only a 250kg.

[Brady]

Their are several photos showing D3A's with just the one bomb, and their are several showing them with the 3 bombs present, for long range flights the vals only carried the one bomb, this has never been in dispute.
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Bellow posted in reply to an inquiry of mine on another thread:

I suppose IJN aircraft enthusiasts must have this Val series No.30 october,1972,Bunrin-Do Co. Got this at Wembly Model Engineering Exhibition 1979. Have no other books of Vals,though.


BTW2 There was an interesting crew story of a Val, where his Hiko-tai(land -based)had to use 60 kgs bombs on South Dacota class BB off Bugen Ville in late 1943 (several hits observed), their initial order was to attack enemy convoy vessels.He regretted having not carried 250 kg AP.

His minute description of how he met with sworms of cap fighters, then after all the fighters´having flown away, the on-set of severe AA screens from a circular group-formation of this US fleet (the formation was totally intact regardless attacks)leaving it´s beautiful wakes behind,is found in this book.

BR


This does the use of the 60KG bombs vs a Naval target.

[Damien Thorn]

Not that this is 100% relevant to the discussion at hand but the D3A also had it's standard range reduced to 7 in the UV patch where it aquired the 2 sixty kg bombs. It wasn't a free addition. Before there existed a range (8) where the Japanese could launch a normal range strike and the US could only respond with long-range dive-bombers. Now that is not possible.

I think there has been enough evidence presented in this thread to show that the D3As were capable of carrying the 250 and 2 60 kg bombs and it should be left that way.

[Brady]

This is a bit more interesting:

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---is found in this Val book of 1972.
Chief Sgt.Ichigi Eiichi fought under senior lieut. Takahashi of ZAUIKAKU , then he was forwarded from Truk to a land base near Rabaul with his Val. The day after his arrival, 3 A.M. heand his Hiko-tai receives order to attack US cargo vessels off Taro-Kina. Carry extra fuel tank instead of 1 x 250 kg bomb, but only 2 x 60 kgs.See friedly light cruisers/bbs seemingly not in good shape,headig back home to Rabaul. Spot enumerous amounts of enemy fighters in the south of Bugen Ville. Friendly Zekes move forward to intercept. Other Zekes fly in gigzags behind of them for protection. He thinks,such a lot of enemy fighters must be a proof of existance of a big game below,and all the Vals drop extra fuel-tanks. More than 100 enemy fighters come approaching. He sees one zero vs. 2 -4 enemy fighers fighting here and there in the air above. Sees many Zekes and Vals ablaze and in smokes,falling down. Suddenly he notices enemy fighters disappear from the sight. Can now hehold a splendidly formed circular-fleet formation just below their noses.

His narration goes on until he safely gets back to the base. -- it´s too long to tell at one breath..

BR/mucho

[madflava13]

Brady - asking a huge favor here -- every time you want to post? Please type it into Word or Word Perfect first. Then run a spell check... Cut and past to Matrix, ok?

Sorry, but the fact of the matter is - when I can actually understand what you're saying, I have a hard time giving it any credit because of the errors. I know that seems cheap, but I personally have such a hard time crediting anyone who can't spell anything... I've read your posts and you have great things to say -- please don't let us lose them in the spelling errors...

[Brady]

Posted on another forum, I beleave the felow who is doing the posting Is Japanese and his spelling is a bit off, but then so is mine, I am not faultiing but I am trying to post his replys as they come:

"Judging from the afore-mentioned one CV-Zuikaku Val prior to taxing out with the 3x bombs-loads on a Philippine land base in¤ late 1944¤, the bombing mission of this Vals is undoubtedly supposed to be for any US Fleet off the Philippines (also according to the caption).

BR "

madflava13 ,

I do see your point, and yes it does sound cheap, and I do relise that this is a probelm for some folks, frankely if some want to flick me sh!t over the spelling I figure i deserve it for the suffering some must indure who do indead take the time to sort the chaf from my posts to get to the meat of the matter.


I dont have word perfect, or any other such programe curently on my PC.

[Brady]

Slightly off topic, but I wanted to put this hear for future referance:

It has come to my atention that Kates used the # 80 land bomb hear as well from another forum:



"During Indian Ocean Kido Butai's Type 97s used 800kg land bombs exclusively, whereas Type 99s used 250kg exclusively.

The 800kg land bombs really did a number on dock facilites in Ceylon, etc., and one has to wonder what the outcome of an attack on the PHNYd might have been!

Wenger "


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A bit more detail regarding the use of 60 KG bombs from Lundstrums book:

Lundstrom's 'The First Team and the Guadalcanal Campaign". There are a couple of references to Val attacks with 60 kg bombs. In one instance a fuel barge was hit, causing heavy burn casualties on a converted destroyer along side. The later Val 22 had four wing racks for 60 kg weapons. '

Cheers!

Greg "

[mogami]

Hi, The 60kg dropped during PH strike were droped by Kate not Val. The Val in PH strike force did not have wing bomb mounts.

Bombs used in strike.

Bombs: • Type 99 #80 mark 5 - 800 kg armor–piercing, for attacking capital ships • Type 99 #25 Model 1Ordinary bomb, for attacking ship targets • Type 98 #25 Land bomb - 250 kg bomb, for attacking land targets • Type 97 #6 Land bomb – 60 kg bomb, for attacking land targets
Torpedo: • Type 91 Modification 2 – 800 kg

The deployment of the weapons is as follows:

800 kg bombs: high level Kates – Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu
250 kg ordinary bombs: second wave Vals - Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu 250 kg land bombs: first wave Vals – Shokaku, Zuikaku
Mix of 60 kg and 250 kg land bombs: second wave Kates - Shokaku, Zuikaku Torpedo: Akagi, Kaga, Hiryu, Soryu

[Brady]

Yes I just saw this report, in fact from another source Mogami, the case for their use from Vals at pearl was the weakest realy, aparently the Bombs that did not penatrate on the BB example sighted above were the land bomb types carried by the Vals that detonated , and the ones that pentrated were the Anti Shiping bombs.

[Brady]

In respons to questions I put forth on another forum regarding this subject:


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Posted By: John Lundstrom Date: Saturday, 28 February 2004, at 9:10 a.m.

In Response To: Re: No VB 60kg Bombs at PH (brady)

Brady, your specific questions I believe refer to my account of the Battle of Santa Cruz. The kodochoshos (combat logs) for every mission describe the bombs used (800 kg, 250 kg or 60 kg), so the payloads of the planes are known, but they may have also carried and dropped other non-explosive devices.

I found several instances in the 1942 carrier battles where Japanese planes dropped something that the USN thought were bombs, but the kodos show they carried no bombs. On 7 May 42 at Coral Sea, three Kates made a horizontal run against the Neosho and Sims nearly two hours before the fatal attack and dropped something that the USN thought were bombs. Yet these Kates all carried torpedoes, not bombs, and they never attacked with torpedoes. Likewise at Santa Cruz a single Japanese plane in a glide bomb run dropped something that disrupted efforts to tow the Hornet. Photos show that plane was a Kate, which had to be one of the contact planes that carried no bombs or torpedoes. Also in the Zuikaku Val that hit the Hornet the 250-kg bomb failed to explode (it was discovered inside the ship), but the USN thought because of the damage that lighter bombs also carried by the Val had detonated. They also, I recall, found aluminum powder spread around. The kodos show those Vals only had 250 kg bombs and no 60s.

Obviously in these instances something other than light 60 kg bombs were being employed. I discovered in OPNAV 30-3M Handbook of Japanese Explosive Ordnance (15 Aug 45), p. 248, reference to Navy Navigation Markers that seem to fit the bill. I may be wrong, & my access to Japanese sources is limited, but these navigation markers seem the only plausible explanation for these odd events.

Believe me, I know that my work is strictly preliminary and that access to new information will surely modify and correct what I have written. That's the way history works. All I can plead is that I took my best shot at the time (10+ years ago) based on all the evidence I could find. All historians make mistakes. I reserve my contempt only for those who don't do their homework before writing.

[Brady]

More From Lundstrum:

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To answer your questions, I found no case from May to Nov 42 of a D3A1 launched on a strike from a carrier where anything but the 250 kg-size bomb was carried. I also found at least two occasions on long range strikes to Guadalcanal where land-based D3A1s carried only two 60 kg bombs. I have not researched any missions by D3A2s.

That being said, I know carrier-based D3A1s did fly anti-sub patrols and very likely carried 2 60 kg bombs. I personally do not know of any occasion where D3A1s carried one 250 kg and two 60 kg bombs at the same time.

Regarding the 800-kg bombs, that was the standard load for the B5N2 Kates when attacking land targets, although the 6 Ryujo Kates did carry 6 60 kg in the 24 Aug 42 strike on Guadalcanal where it was hoped to catch the US planes on the ground. I never heard any mention of 500 kg bombs during this period.

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His research pertains only to the time frame mentioned above May to Nov.

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Somthing else that has just come to my atention, and posted by:

Do you have access to a copy of AICHI D3A1/2 VAL, by Peter C. Smith, published in the UK by The Crowood Press, 1999
ISBN 1 86126 278 7?

States that both D3A1/D3A2 had provision for five bomb racks, one under fuselage (for 250kg bomb) and two under each wing (for 60kg bomb); but includes table that states max bomb load for both was 310kg/783lb.

Also states that a 500kg bomb could be carried if the rear gunner was left out and very rarely done.

Only two photos showing mixed bomb load:

A photo of a Val carrying three bombs, caption: "A 'Val' bombed-up with under-wing bomb load in place poses for the camera on a shore base in Japan. Author's collection from D3A Type 99 Carrier-Borne Dive-Bomber Manual"

Photo showing bomb under fuselage and bomb under wing is captioned: "An Aichi 'Val' dive-bomber taking off from an airstrip on a south-west Pacific island during the Rabaul campaign, 1943. Koujin-sha"

[Brady]

Another :

Mixed bomb load: example found. 27 Oct 1944 suicide mission. "At 0700, three 'Vals' of the TEMPEI (Warriors of Heaven) unit took off from Nichols Field, at the south of Manila, each armed with 250kg and four 60kg bombs. These 'Vals' belonged to 701st Kokutai's KOGEKI DAI 102 HIKOTAI (No. 102 Special Attack unit)." A fourth Val of the SHISEI (True Loyalty) Unit also carried the mixed bomb load.

Photo: Posted by JFL; Credit: Peter C. Smith, "Aichi D3A1/2 Val," p.117

[Brady]

Punted for Lemurs.

[Ron Saueracker]

I don't see B-26s with torps, different size bombs like 500lb, 1000lb on B-17s etc. Why the big hubbub?

Like, Mogami, I thought the 60kgs were range influenced in WITP.

[Mr.Frag]

Mixed bomb load: example found. 27 Oct 1944 suicide mission. "At 0700, three 'Vals' of the TEMPEI (Warriors of Heaven) unit took off from Nichols Field, at the south of Manila, each armed with 250kg and four 60kg bombs. These 'Vals' belonged to 701st Kokutai's KOGEKI DAI 102 HIKOTAI (No. 102 Special Attack unit)." A fourth Val of the SHISEI (True Loyalty) Unit also carried the mixed bomb load.

Seriously, can we stop with this 3 planes once during the entire war of 4,000,000,000 sorties flew with a different bomb because some schmuck in supplies screwed up and the plane had to take off with what was lying around that day. It really gets are silly.

It takes long enough to cycle through every single air group without having to cycle through every single possible weapon that could be stuck on a plane coupled with the fact that the entire supply system is abstracted down to the fact you don't actually have to ship the correct weapons to the correct base so the correct aircraft can fly with the correct weapon based on you choosing the correct weapon loadout for the correct mission type based on the correct report from correctly configured search aircraft flying and reporting back in real time so you can correctly stop the game every 10 minutes and correctly issue tactical orders to allow the aircraft to even fly.

Much as i would love to sink your AK's that happen to be carrying torpedoes so your aircraft no longer have any and I can laugh my arse off as your little 250kg bombs ping pong off my armor, it is not in the scale of the game. If it didn't happen at least at a squadron level, give it up. The game does not go to the unit level. It will never go to the unit level. You can't deal with issuing orders to 10,000 individual aircraft.