[1.11.08] "Feat and bonuses overview" has old/wrong descriptions

[phyroks]

Report -> Overviews -> Feat and Bonuses overview

It list information how things like "Political Bonus Points" effect your nation, but the descriptions are not correct. Was the displayed information changed at some point to be easier to read but tooltips forgot this update happened? It says in the tooltip that the bonus would be double of the 30% displayed but clearly its not giving 60% which would mean 18 more PP not 9.

All the tooltips in here might need a read through and fixes? Granted its much more easier to figure out whats what when it displays the right percentage right away so thanks for that

[Vic]

Thanks for reporting! First mouse-over is indeed wrong. Second (soldier morale) is correct!

[phyroks]

Thanks for reporting! First mouse-over is indeed wrong. Second (soldier morale) is correct!

Could it instead just show the soldier morale corretly (20%?) and not 40%? would make it less confusing?
I dont know why these even show percetanges that are not actualy percentages for gameplay.

[Cassini]

Regarding Political Point calculations...

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I've got a High Command IV functioning at full capacity, showing 900 'bonus political points'. I've got 4 hex perks that have the 1 PP each under control.

I'm not sure how the default 7 PP are granted (not the issue here), but by the manual, the root of the bonus political points should be added to the default points - I get 7 plus 30 here (not 7 plus 14 as shown in the mouse over). The points for ownership of the hex perks are completely missing from the mouseover.

So instead of the 36 PP given, I should be receiving ((7 + 30) * 1.7) + 4 = 66.9 Political Points.

Each round the mouseover shows between 180 and about 300 ppPoints (it bounces all over the place). This is a MAJOR issue since I can barely keep things functioning with the points that are given (handling decisions and creating formations) - there is NOTHING left to use any cards for zone development.

Is there something 'hidden' which subtracts ppPoints from the total produced by the High Command - then takes the root of the remainder??

This problem actually goes back to the Beta - but I can't remember if I brought it up back then.

[Cassini]

Just thought about an explanation for the missing 4 PP for the hex perks...

Does the program treat the 1PP hex perk as a 10% bonus to the total calculated?? This would make sense, since I have 4 hex perks and the 30% bonus from democracy profile. (4 hex perks time 10% each plus the 30% from the democracy profile giving 70% bonus)

[JeanleChauve]

Just thought about an explanation for the missing 4 PP for the hex perks...

Does the program treat the 1PP hex perk as a 10% bonus to the total calculated?? This would make sense, since I have 4 hex perks and the 30% bonus from democracy profile. (4 hex perks time 10% each plus the 30% from the democracy profile giving 70% bonus)

All ppPoints are transformed into square root in % bonus the next turn. You find them in the bonus points overview (rep->feats and bonus overview).
Indeed +1PP hexes do not appear in the tooltip and I have no game with these hexes to test.
If not, you will see that the maths is correct

[Cassini]

Here is the list of reports. It correctly shows the 900 political bonus points, of which the root is taken and added to the default PP (per the manual) - since 7 default PP are listed, there should be 7 + 30 political points after this calculation. The 'dashboard' shows 7 default PP and 205 ppBonus for a total of 14 PP (7 plus the root of 205 = 14.3 rounded down to 14). The 900 political bonus points listed in the report screen are not 'making it' into the calculation which shows in the mouseover on the dashboard. The program has been throwing up somewhere between 180 and about 300 ppBonus each round in the mouseover - i have NEVER received the 900 ppBonus that results from a fully functional High Command IV - at least in the PP calculation.

Then... the 70% political bonus.... 40% of that comes from the 'Engaged Politicians' feat - where the other 30% comes from - who knows. I have 4 hex perks that list 1 PP bonus - NONE of those show anywhere in the calculation.

So... by my calculation, I should be receiving 7 default PP, a bonus of 30 due to ppBonus (for a total of 37), then this is multiplied by 1.7 to get 62.9 PP. Then the 4 hex perks should be adding one PP each (I'm making a wild assumption that these PP are supposed to be added AFTER all the previous manipulations), yielding a total of 66.9 (rounding one way or another).

The dashboard shows 36 PP generated for the current round - no where close to 66.9 (or something in that ballpark).

This is causing all the problems with not being able to use hardly any of the strat. cards - since so many PP are spent each round making decisions, raising formations, giving zone orders and trying to hire leaders to fill vacancies.

[Vic]

Hi Cassini,

I will be looking into this the coming week somewhere.
Thanks for reporting and please feel free to send a savegame illustrating all this to vic@vrdesigns.net

best wishes,
Vic

[JeanleChauve]

Regarding the PP distributed by default, they depend on the difficulty. You will find the explanation in the manual.

Features and bonus overview
The square root xxPoints of assets (here 900) are converted into a regime BONUS % ->+30%
The regime feat is added to the regime BONUS %.->+40% ->total 70%
Organisations: supreme command council overview
The ppPoints (here 205) coming from the supreme commander.
Please check that your supreme commander has produced 205 ppPoints as I assumed.

Empire dashboard
We take the default PPs (7) and the square root of the ppPoints (205->14) coming from the supreme commander and we multiply by the regime BONUS: (7+14)*70% -> 15PP rounded.

The 4*1 PP hexes have certainly been added to the balance at the top of the window, without special mention or calculations.

[Cassini]

image_2022-11-08_201714025.png (12.02 KiB) Viewed 455 times

I checked out the numbers and they match up. HOWEVER... the language of the manual is misleading.

Base income - based on difficulty level - CHECK

PP production by Organizations - this one is a bit misleading, since the ONLY organization that produces ANY PP is the Supreme Command Council (not plural). Another misleading part is that the root of ppPoints produced by assets (High Command Asset) IS NOT ADDED to the 'base income' but rather a MULTIPLIER to the sum of base income and root of ppPoints produced by the Supreme Command Council.

On the line in the manual excerpt 'Political Bonus' , it states "PP is increased by Political Bonus %". This leads to another bit of confusion. Mathematically, when one increases by a percentage, one must MULTIPLY by the percentage and then add to the original to get final adjusted amount (which is Vic's intent). When one reads simply 'increased', one (at least with American Standard English), understands ADD - thus why I added the root of 900 to the default of 7 PP to get 37 PP. It would have been better to state in the manual table for 'Political Bonus' (under the PP Income Type) to state 'PP is MULTIPLIED by Political Bonus %'.

Once this is interpreted in the manner you describe, the 'number' do indeed 'match up', BUT the 4 hex perks ARE NOT being accounted for in the math anywhere.

Going back to the original mouseover calculations...

7 PP (default) + (Sqrt 205 ppPoints by Supreme Cmd Council) = 21 PP
Political Bonus of 40% due to feat and 30% due to High Command IV (sqrt 900) = 70% bonus

21 PP + (70% * 21) = 21 + 15 = 36 PP.

No where in there are the PP from the hex perks (there are 4 listed in the assets of different zones) being accounted for - either added to the 36 PP above or added to the Default PP at the beginning of the formula calculation. Now... if the default PP was 3 in this 'game' and the 4 hex perks brought it up to 7... that would be another story - BUT, the minimum starting PP is 5 - so the 4 hex perks are NOT being thrown into the 'default mix' It would be fantastic to have these added to the default before the multiplier bonus is applied, but I believe Vic's intent was a simple addition to the FINAL calculated PP (post bonus application). So I should have 40 PP being generated for the round, NOT 36.

This is something that ALL players should check and comment upon. Do the mouseover in the 'Dashboard' for new PP and note the calculations. Then check your Supreme Command Council (under organizations) to see what the final ppPoints generated (post modifications) are. Make sure the ppPoints listed by the Supreme Command Council match what is shown in the mouseover (it should). NOW... if you have any hex perks that add PP - see if these are accounted for in the FINAL 'NEW PP's' column in the Dashboard.

The other implication is that players MUST really load up the Supreme Council with BP in order to get any real increase in PP production. I was thinking that the High Command asset production was a direct addition to PP production (sqrt of ppPoints being generated being ADDED to PP production - NOT a bonus to the sum total of default and Supreme Command Council ppBonus production). I have my Supreme Command council allocated 8-9% of BP production, in an effort to minimize 'waste' once a particular category exceeds 100 BP assigned (BP distributed to make sure any specific subgroup in a council doesn't exceed 100 BP by much). The only way to really amp up PP production is to 'pour' BP into Supreme Command Council (specifically political power generation), and make sure the leader of the Supreme Command Council it the BEST leader you have (maxed out relation and skills - including using the 'Protocol' card, Family 'fate' card, and Medal of Merit card.

[Cassini]

I pulled up some old saves and checked if hex perk PP are added to the Dashboard total as stated earlier... they indeed are added WITHOUT reference in the Dashboard. So there is no issue with PP calculations and proper crediting to player totals are being accomplished.

[Don_Kiyote]

Regarding how Political Points are calculated...

I pulled up some old saves and checked if hex perk PP are added to the Dashboard total as stated earlier... they indeed are added WITHOUT reference in the Dashboard. So there is no issue with PP calculations...

Thanks for the research. I couldn't figure out exactly how PPs were calculated either. But now we know how the PP Bonus stat works, and the rest of the calculation too. For instance, how there are bonus Political Points, as in '+1', and then there is a Political Point Bonus (ppBonus) points, which is both a generated type of 'point', and a flat percentage.

Overall the PP system was playing fine for me. Political Points are a fundamental bottleneck. And there isnt much you can do about it. I built tons of Bureaucracy producing buildings and increased funding to the Supreme Command Council. But that strategy can only take you so far. The PP numbers start to plateau. It turns out that Relation levels and the Supreme Command Director's Administration stat are one of the only available and effective ways to add to how many PP you have each turn.

Where did you find those hex perk PPs reported, or did you just check before and after taking a PP Bonus hex?

[Cassini]

Regarding how Political Points are calculated...

I pulled up some old saves and checked if hex perk PP are added to the Dashboard total as stated earlier... they indeed are added WITHOUT reference in the Dashboard. So there is no issue with PP calculations...

Where did you find those hex perk PPs reported, or did you just check before and after taking a PP Bonus hex?

I pulled up some old saves and manually ran through the PP calculation - and the hex perk PPs were a direct addition to final round generated PP - BUT these hex perk PPs were NOT being run through the dashboard (that's why I thought they were 'missing'). The hex perk PPs are simply added to the result shown in the dashboard and appear in the screen top as total available PP (without any specific mention or accounting in a 'report').

The dashboard mouseover only references the default PP, the pp generated by the Supreme Command Council (sqrt to calculate actual PP), then the multiplier effect of any 'feats' (I think this is limited to the Democracy 'profile') this is combined - that is ADDED - to the sqrt of the pp produced by the High Command Asset.

(Default PP + sqrt pp Political Power - from Supreme Council) TIMES (1 + (feat percentage bonus from Democracy + sqrt High Command pp expressed as a percentage))

Assuming 7 Default PP, 459 ppPoints Generated by Sup Cmd, 40 % feat bonus from Democracy and Level 4 High Command generating 900 pp

(7 + sqrt 459) TIMES ( 1 + 40% + (sqrt 900/100))

(7 + 21.42) TIMES (1 + 40% + 30%)

28.42 TIMES 1.7 = 48.3 (which rounds down to 48, which shows in the dashboard mouseover I'm using). The hex perks I have are simply being added to this number to correctly show at the screen top of total PPs available for use.

So the way to maximize PP is to maximize BP allocation to the Supreme Command Council (obviously maximize BP production too), then to HEAVILY favor allocation to 'Political Power'. Next get the BEST leader you have (preferably a IV or V) into that position that also has HIgh Command, and Admin skill (Diplomat Skill to boost card production if you don't have a Foreign Affairs Director). Boost that leader with the 'Tactical Genius' and 'Happy Family', 'Dopiminator' and 'Coritical Stimulator' cards. Then hit them with the cards that boost relation whenever you have the PP to spend. You want relation at 100 and KEEP IT THERE. Then construct the 'highest' High Command asset you can.

In order to get that 459 ppPoints, I had to pump 220 BP into Political Power generation, which was reduced to 159 BP due to inefficiency, then it was multiplied by a leader relation bonus of 50% and an Admin bonus of 93%.(So multiply 159 by 1.5 and then again by 1.93).

I plan ion getting about 350 BP into political power generation and I'm waiting on the Democracy feat which gives a 60% bonus to PP. This would yield 100 + (((350 - 100) / 2) = 225 BP. This is multiplied by 1.5 and again by 1.93 = 651 ppPoints. The sqrt of this (25.5) plus the default 7 PP I'm getting is multiplied by the bonus for feat (60%) added to High Command (30%) to yield 61.75 PP generated.

If Democracy is 'maxed out' and the 80% bonus for that is received and a High Command V (40% bonus) is constructed, then PP would be 81.9 PP. So it looks like PP generation approaches an 'asymptote' of about 85 PP per round, but at CONSIDERABLE effort to get there. If your Supreme Command Council leader doesn't have the bonuses which the one I have in the current game possesses, then a more likely 'asymptote' for PP generation would be about 45-50 per round.

[Don_Kiyote]

crystal clear

Effective PP/turn limit is about 60+/-2, and the five-standard-deviation sort of score is about 80+/-2

I understand this whole system as a way to design a mechanic. 'Stacking bonuses' is one of the basic techniques of video game players, but sometimes you can succeed so well that you become over-powered, losing interest enjoyment by winning the game, and ending the run. Here we are strung along, going to great lengths for a new, relatively small advantage.

I try to play diplomatically, so PP is a serious limitation, especially for Xeno Diplomacy. But maybe a warlord-bully approach, or PvP game, wouldn't feel it so much.