Any port captured should not be 5 Points when changing hands... This leads to the ability to ship in units on the same turn as captured and is totally unrealistic to any war achievements in modern history. Make the Max a Port will transfer to another side at 4 points.
This is epically true for England... where 1 airdrop can end up with 5 Germans in English Territory in one turn... (without even 1 amphibious attack.)
Fix this.... it is totally broken.
Kenny
* The USA should also be given the ability to build a mulberrie to support an invasion. Creates a Level 6 Port at any adequate coastal hex, movement 4, cost 15. (can't repair.) * You could upgrade 1 USA marine (M) for the same effect, can't be rebuilt, cost +15.
I don't see how its unrealistic that a major port that is captured mostly intact can't immediately be used. Every port will take damage if the port is taken by battle, so smaller ports (5pt) are always unusable for a few turns. But a larger port (6+) has a chance of still being functional if seized, especially if overrun instead of attacked. As for England, if you leave your ports undefended, then you'll get paratroopers. Not unrealistic at all that an undefended port is seized and immediately put to use transporting in troops. You need to defend your ports. I learned that early on by losing England to an early Operation Sea Lion because my opponents overflights determined it was possible.
it is totally unrealistic that an Airborne Division would cross over hundreds of miles over enemy territory to capture a port then transport 2 full army's, an Armor and HQ into that port in one turn. No army in history has or would even attempt such a wet dream... get real. That is broken end of story. If you even think that is posable you are a fool.
The fact that the British are even put into this situation early on because they have next to no defense early on is just absurd.
Just for reference D-day landed 6 Divison's, and army is 3-7 Divison's. D-Day took Years of planning. D-Day lasted from 6 June – 30 August 1944 (2 months, 3 weeks and 3 days). And you think the Germans can do better in two weeks with no planning and less equipment... Get Real.
Last edited by kjgokc2007 on Mon Oct 17, 2022 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kjgokc2007 wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 2:00 am
it is totally unrealistic that an Airborne Division would cross over hundreds of miles over enemy territory to capture a port then transport 2 full army's, an Armor and HQ into that port in one turn. No army in history has or would even attempt such a wet dream... get real. That is broken end of story. If you even think that is posable you are a fool.
The fact that the British are even put into this situation early on because they have next to no defense early on is just stupid.
Just for reference D-day landed 6 Divison's, and army is 3-7 Divison's. D-Day took Years of planning. D-Day lasted from 6 June – 30 August 1944 (2 months, 3 weeks and 3 days). And you think the Germans can do better in two weeks with no planning and less equipment... Get Real.
Hi
This is an interesting discussion that you've started, but please do not resort to calling people names as it distracts from what we should be discussing: the game and its features.
You are absolutely right, I apologize. I was just trying to make a point.
The cost to transport or launch an Amphibious landing should also reflect the size and type of unit in transportation points as well as the cost. * Airborne units range should be reduced to 5 hexes to match actual capabilities, using the JU-52 that was actually used in Norway for reference * see stats below.)
I don't believe that Germany had the transportation capability to do what I just saw. Especially within the first few months of the war.
In this case my opponent used his airborne in early March/April 1940 to attack the hex next to Manchester* and move up to take the city and capture the Liverpool Port (about 645 KM away from Hague where the attack started, according to google maps, doing the Math 645KM by 7 hexes is 92KM per hex) while still attacking France. The Naval troop transports would travel more than double to triple that distance in unfriendly waters.
In this example the Germans flew a single Airborne Division over 600 KM though contested sky's, the last leg without fighter cover at all. Landed over 90 KM away then marched though England uncontested and captured the port and then forced the civilian population to assist them in landing huge amounts of German support all within two weeks. I would love to see that division in action. (ports require huge amounts of civilian support to operate. Germany didn't even have an Air Transport capable of making that trip and returning in 1940.)
The German Troop Transports traveled though the English Channel, around GB and into Manchester, hundreds of miles away.
It is an exploit of the Airborne capability as GB at that point in time has next to no defense against it. A simple Garrison or Naval vessel can stop this yes, if you are aware that you can be exploited by a totally unrealistic attack. But GB has only 1 Garrison in GB (that is not going to abandon London) and one in Ireland to defend 5 ports that could be targets at that point in time.
I am just trying to help identify what is a huge flaw in the game. The English channel was mined and patrol craft would have stopped simple transports from just flowing into a port. It is a broken tactic that needs to be addressed.
/Hugs
Kenny
Just for reference this was the German Air Transport developed for Operation Sea Lion that didn't even enter service till 1943. First flight January 20, 1942.
This would put the Airborne range Maximum at 8 hexes one way. So the range of Airborne units in 1943+ would only be about 4 hexes at best.
Specifications (Me 323D-6)
Data from Britannica Book Of The Year 1944;[13] German Aircraft of the Second World War[8]
General characteristics
Crew: 5
Capacity: 130 troops or 10,000–12,000 kg (22,000–26,500 lb) payload
Length: 28.2 m (92 ft 6 in)
Wingspan: 55.2 m (181 ft 1 in)
Height: 10.15 m (33 ft 4 in)
Wing area: 300 m2 (3,200 sq ft)
Airfoil: root: NACA 2R1 19; tip: NACA 2R1 10[14]
Empty weight: 27,330 kg (60,252 lb)
Gross weight: 29,500 kg (65,036 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 43,000 kg (94,799 lb)
Powerplant: 6 × Gnome-Rhône 14N 14-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engines[15] 1,180 PS (1,164 hp; 867.9 kW) take-off power
Propellers: 3-bladed Chauvière variable-pitch propeller Performance
Maximum speed: 285 km/h (177 mph, 154 kn)
Cruise speed: 218 km/h (135 mph, 118 kn)
Range: 800 km (500 mi, 430 nmi)
Ferry range: 1,100 km (680 mi, 590 nmi)
Service ceiling: 4,000 m (13,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 3.6 m/s (710 ft/min)
Armament
Guns: multiple 7.92 mm MG 15, MG 81 or 13 mm MG 131 machine guns
Below the JU 52 is the airplane used in Norway. (Operations range about 5 hexes, but using this plane would take close to 1,764 aircraft to lift the German 1st Parachute Division's 30,000 men. Not to mention their equipment. There were only 4,835 built from 1931 to 1945.)
Specifications (Junkers Ju 52/3m g3e)
CASA 352-L 3-view drawing
Data from The Warplanes of the Third Reich,[85] Aircraft Profile No. 177: The Junkers Ju 52 Series[27]
General characteristics
Crew: Two
Capacity: 17 passengers
Length: 19 m (62 ft)
Wingspan: 29 m (96 ft)
Height: 5.5 m (18.2 ft)
Wing area: 110.50 m2 (1,189.4 sq ft)
Empty weight: 5,720 kg (12,610 lb)
Gross weight: 9,500 kg (20,944 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 10,499 kg (23,146 lb)
Powerplant: 3 × BMW 132A-3 9-cylinder air-cooled radial piston engines, 541 kW (725 hp) each for take-off (525 PS[86])
Propellers: 2-bladed variable-pitch propeller
Performance
Maximum speed: 265.5 km/h (165.0 mph, 143.4 kn) at sea level
276.8 km/h (172.0 mph; 149.5 kn) at 910 m (3,000 ft)
Cruise speed: 246 km/h (153 mph, 133 kn) maximum continuous at 910 m (3,000 ft)
209 km/h (130 mph; 113 kn) economical cruise
Range: 998 km (620 mi, 539 nmi) (Range 10 Hexes, or 5 for operations if they want to come back)
Service ceiling: 5,900 m (19,360 ft)
Rate of climb: 3.9 m/s (770 ft/min)
Time to altitude: 910 m (3,000 ft) in 17 minutes 30 seconds
Wing loading: 83.35 kg/m2 (17.07 lb/sq ft)
Power/mass: 7.95 kg/kW
Last edited by kjgokc2007 on Tue Oct 18, 2022 10:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
kjgokc2007 wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 1:37 pm
In this case my opponent used his airborne in early March/April 1940 to attack Manchester* (about 645 KM away from Hague where the attack started, according to google maps, doing the Math 645KM by 7 hexes is 92KM per hex) while still attacking France. The Naval troop transports would travel more than double to triple that distance in unfriendly waters.
The German Paratroops have an operational range of 6, which launching from Amsterdam could enable them to land 1 hex north of Cambridge in the UK, but that is still 2 hexes short of Manchester.
I wonder if your opponent successfully researched and upgraded them with Long Range Aircraft very quickly?
The paratroops jump from Den Haag to the spot 86,34 next to Manchester.
With their movement capability of 1 the can then take Manchester if no unit is present there.
If there is also no ship in the Liverpool port then the port can be captured too.
Since it is a supply 12 port there is a good chance that it will stay 5 or above.
No long range aircraft is needed for that.
Liverpool and Manchester can also be reached by a marine bomber (no upgrade needed), so the Axis player
can check if both are empty before doing the jump.
Experienced players will place a unit or at least a ship in all reachable ports to avoid such an attack.
UK is surely not lacking ships.
Moving as a UK player all ships and most units away from UK seems also quite an unrealistic approach.
Perhaps the GB Home/National guard should start when war is triggered. Germany should get equal Garrisons to compensate and maintain balance. Germany is in danger of the same type of activity, via a quick invasion. Britten just doesn't have the units to back it up. * You might restrict these units to the home Country.
Other countries get units triggered if they are attacked at home, in some cases even if a unit comes close. Britten should get the same consideration. USA, Australia, Japan for example. Italy and Germany should also be included for balance.
GB can not defend itself with just Garrisons. It turns into a blood bath.
* I had ships in all the ports but Manchester/Liverpool when the attack happened, even two of the units BEF were pulled from France and defending GB (The Army protecting London and a Division protecting Plymoth). I didn't expect an airborne attack while France was still fighting. I was worried about an Amphibious assault on the east cost more, silly me.
Two Garrisons can not defend 5 ports. Even If they jumped in and just took a city it is very hard to fight back if you move to attack that unit you leave the other ports in danger. It is just unrealistic that GB is left so weak to defend their most important assets to start with.
Germany should have to pound their way into GB not have a cake walk. They are very capable of doing the Pounding. But all in all there was a reason why Germany didn't invade they didn't have the resources to do it.
One garrison wont solve the problem... there are 5 ports to protect. Germany should receive equal consideration, the Axis have already been nurffed over and over again via the last patches.
* But it will help. You have my suggestions in my previous post.
The problem is GB starts way to weak in their Home country to begin with. Its is silly to think the BEF was 99% of the British army all sent to France leaving GB defenseless.
The Airborne units are just too powerful for what they actually could accomplish. Range 5 would help.
No port should be operational the same turn it is captured. That is the real issue here.
* Maybe a damaged port can only transport in 1 unit a turn? Or better Yet Ports can only transfer Units in or out based on Transport cost based on the Port Value (Garrison 1 TP Pts, Division 2 TP Pts, Arty/HQ 3 TP pts, Armor/AT 4 TP Pts, ARMY 5 TP Pts, etc.... Rounded down.)
If you do end up giving GB a Garrison (or 3) be sure to give Germany/Italy equal Garrisons to keep the balance. (Germany can use some as well, Sneak attacks on Germany can be very effective.
RE: "Experienced players will place a unit or at least a ship in all reachable ports to avoid such an attack.
UK is surely not lacking ships."
German air will destroy any British ships in range. Especially that early in the war. Any attempts to ward them off with the British Airforce are disastrous for BG. The Battle of Britian is woefully in favor of Germany. Placing them in reachable ports to stop an unrealistic invasion is just feeding the Germ Luftwaffe.
Germany LOVES to encourage a novice Brit to exchange air at 3 to 1 early game with their significant air quality.
And NO, the British (initial 20) and French (initial 5) fleets would be hard pressed to guard 5 ports, while also dealing with Germ's (initial 11) and later Italy's (8) with the French fleet soon to be gone due to conquest either at the time of Itay's DOW or within 1/2 turns after.
