Morale Exploit via the use of Conquest and Cap at 100%

[Judgementday]

Good morning,

I have learned of an exploit by the Axis regarding morale.

The Axis can easly save 5+ minor countries (Lux, Neth, Denmark, Yugo, Norway, Greece, French Indo., Tunis, ...) and time their conquest to key attacks on USSR and/or Japan's opening attacks on US, Hong Kong, Philippines....). Boosting these attacks significantly.

Noting, that this is double edged sword, not only does it boost the Axis morale, but it also reduces Allies morale

Saving just four counties of the eight, results in a +80 to +120 morale boost to the Axis AND -80 to -120 moral reduction to Allies over a course of 3-6 months immediately following your DOW on USSR.

7.29.3. Morale Bonuses and Penalties
When a country surrenders there is a unit morale bonus for all units of the conquering country as well as for all similarly aligned fully active Majors, and a corresponding morale decrease for all fully active opponent Majors. These morale gains or losses are 20-30% for land and air units and 5-15% for naval units.

Morale bonuses are restricted to units whose morale is below 125%, and Morale Penalties are restricted to units whose morale is above 50%. These effects are intended to replicate those hard to quantify morale boosts and penalties that victories and defeats during a war can have on either side. Their effect is solely on unit’s combat effectiveness, and generally unit morale will only be affected for a few turns

7.29.4. Unit Readiness and Its Effect on Combat
Unit strength, supply and morale values all combine to determine a unit’s overall readiness for combat, and this Readiness value is key to its combat effectiveness.

Readiness for land and air units is calculated using one of the following two formulas:

If the unit comes under a HQ
Readiness = (((Unit Strength + HQ Rating) / 2 + Unit Morale / 10 + HQ
Experience) / 2) * 10

If the unit isn’t commanded by a HQ
Readiness = ((Unit Strength / 2 + Unit Morale / 10) / 2) * 10

As naval units never come under the command of HQs they always use
a special formula of their own:
Readiness = (Unit Strength + (Unit Morale / 10)) / 2 * 1

Morale based upon conquest cannot have a predictable impact across the globe that can be timed.

Morale boost for conquest also needs to be scaled if not already, the conquest of Lux should not be the same significance as Yugo for example). I am not sure if this is already built in.

Also, Morale needs a CAP, 120+ morale is unrealistic. Units become superhuman at some point. I don't think realistically, any unit can or should exceed 100%

[Hubert Cater]

This is certainly a tactic that players can use, not sure if there is really something we can do that will not have a significant potential impact elsewhere that would also then require further balancing.

But that being said, we may make some further changes in the future, maybe.

[Judgementday]

Good morning,

Thank you for the response and consideration.

USSR really needs Germany to wind down to have any chance. If they don't, pretty soon USSR is just overwhelmed and it's too late. It snowballs. Germany gets even greater morale from the victories and USSR spirals to doom losing key city after key city.

U.S. is resilient enough to weather the storm. Although, Japan becomes such a beast with 120+ moral that they can take objectives (e.g., Australia) that where probably unrealistic. I'm not sure, but the U.S West Coast may even be within Japan's reach. As Japan can easily take Hawaii, if they wish.

I believe a CAP of 100% morale would impact All countries equally. The idea that any solder can perform at 110% or 120% is unlikely.

The ability to time these boosts is also unrealistic. There should be at least a one or two turn delay for the impact of a conquest to become realized across the globe.

[Bavre]

Oh this issue has been around quite a long time. 1,5 years ago I managed to completely break the WW1 game with it. Once you understand how to properly harness this, it's incredibly powerful. Especially since there are so many little countries on the WaW map. Expert metas can give the Axis literal years of basically Godmode.
A simple solution would be to divide into major and minor surrenders, with the latter being far less powerful. Right now killing Luxembourg triggers afaik the same effect as killing Russia.

[kjgokc2007]

Sounds like an issue that should be address... Each country should be worth a specific amount of Boost to Moral based on the value of that country. Lux should be next to nothing vs say the Fall of France... To think they give the same Boost is a bug in your logic for sure.

Easy solution is to take the MMP of the country concorded and use that to calculate the % of the boost given. This would even allow for bigger boost for say taking out Russia, Japan, Italy or China and be more realistic.

A cap of 110% for all Nations would probably be fine as well as a short fix.

This would work for both sides equally so there is no balance issue.

/hugs

Kenny

[archmache]

Good morning,

Thank you for the response and consideration.

USSR really needs Germany to wind down to have any chance. If they don't, pretty soon USSR is just overwhelmed and it's too late. It snowballs. Germany gets even greater morale from the victories and USSR spirals to doom losing key city after key city.

U.S. is resilient enough to weather the storm. Although, Japan becomes such a beast with 120+ moral that they can take objectives (e.g., Australia) that where probably unrealistic. I'm not sure, but the U.S West Coast may even be within Japan's reach. As Japan can easily take Hawaii, if they wish.

I believe a CAP of 100% morale would impact All countries equally. The idea that any solder can perform at 110% or 120% is unlikely.

The ability to time these boosts is also unrealistic. There should be at least a one or two turn delay for the impact of a conquest to become realized across the globe.

The moral cap doesn't really matter. The moral boost only occurs if NM is > 115%. Its 115 = 1.1 / 95-115 = 1.0 / 85 - 98 = .95 and less than 65 = .8 multiplier. I think those are fine numbers.

In my opinion judgement day what sunk USSR in your game was too many retreats. Entrechment is what protects and key counterattacks against tanks.

[Judgementday]

Good evening,

Archmache, with much respect, I feel that your words do not match your actions.

In our game (if I remember correctly), you saved minors Luxemburg, Netherlands and Denmark. Then attacked USSR early to immediately follow it up with an attack and conquest of Yugoslavia. Then periodically every few turns would then in sequence conquer the three saved minors listed earlier. Also noting, if memory serves me correctly that you used your paratroopers to conquer Tunis as well. Also counting French Indo-China, which I think was also conquered in the same timeframe.

Noting, that this is double edged sword, not only does it boost the Axis morale, but it also reduces Allies morale

These six conquests resulted in giving a +120 to +180 morale boost to the Axis AND -120 to -180 moral reduction to Allies over a course of 4-5 months immediately following your DOW on USSR.

7.29.3. Morale Bonuses and Penalties
When a country surrenders there is a unit morale bonus for all units of the conquering country as well as for all similarly aligned fully active Majors, and a corresponding morale decrease for all fully active opponent Majors. These morale gains or losses are 20-30% for land and air units and 5-15% for naval units.

Morale bonuses are restricted to units whose morale is below 125%, and Morale Penalties are restricted to units whose morale is above 50%. These effects are intended to replicate those hard to quantify morale boosts and penalties that victories and defeats during a war can have on either side. Their effect is solely on unit’s combat effectiveness, and generally unit morale will only be affected for a few turns

7.29.4. Unit Readiness and Its Effect on Combat
Unit strength, supply and morale values all combine to determine a unit’s overall readiness for combat, and this Readiness value is key to its combat effectiveness.

Readiness for land and air units is calculated using one of the following two formulas:

If the unit comes under a HQ
Readiness = (((Unit Strength + HQ Rating) / 2 + Unit Morale / 10 + HQ
Experience) / 2) * 10

If the unit isn’t commanded by a HQ
Readiness = ((Unit Strength / 2 + Unit Morale / 10) / 2) * 10

As naval units never come under the command of HQs they always use
a special formula of their own:
Readiness = (Unit Strength + (Unit Morale / 10)) / 2 * 1

Saving the minors was used to not only boost your Axis attack but reduce the USSR defense.

Yes, I retreated when adjacent to boosted Axis forces with my own units weakened. To try and hold would certainly mean their death. Once you start to retreat, there is little to no entrenchments to benefit from, so it just snowballs. As you repeated the tactic time after time.

Well played, but you cannot use this tactic and then write that it doesn't matter, as you clearly don't believe that to be true or you would not have deployed the tactic.

[Bavre]

Uhm guys,

it kinda sounds like you're not talking of the same thing:
Arch's numbers belong to the "NM effect on troop morale", while Judgementday talks of the "country surrender effect on global troop morale". Those two are completely separate mechanics!

[Judgementday]

Good afternoon Bavre and thank you for your input.

However, Country Conquest impacts Unit Morale not Global Morale.

7.29.3. Morale Bonuses and Penalties
When a country surrenders there is a unit morale bonus for all units of the conquering country as well as for all similarly aligned fully active Majors, and a corresponding morale decrease for all fully active opponent Majors. These morale gains or losses are 20-30% for land and air units and 5-15% for naval units.

Morale bonuses are restricted to units whose morale is below 125%, and Morale Penalties are restricted to units whose morale is above 50%. These effects are intended to replicate those hard to quantify morale boosts and penalties that victories and defeats during a war can have on either side. Their effect is solely on unit’s combat effectiveness, and generally unit morale will only be affected for a few turns

[Bavre]

I'm aware of 7.29.3 and its implications (and I've been quite vocal about it for nearly two years). In my above post I merely wanted to point out, that Archmache was thinking of a different mechanic which had nothing to do with this particular problem (and just sounds kind of similar).

Edit: Ah, I see the missunderstanding:
When I said "global troop morale" in my above post, I meant 7.29.3, as its effects are global (i.e. it hits every unit at war).

Btw: There are far more devastating ways to weaponize 7.29.3 than what you described above.

[Judgementday]

Bavre,

Thank you for clarification.

To be clear, the issue is associated to manipulation of the entire (active) Axis and Allies Unit Morale by using Conquest of Minor Countries timed to coincide with the initial German assault on USSR. Using it too basically destroy almost any chance for USSR to hold. Probably taking China down at the same time as well.

And yes, I guess there other golden moments, like using it to even invade the USA's west coast?

[Hubert Cater]

Just for some further clarifications, individual unit morale cannot ever exceed 125% and will after a few turns normalize again to a regular value, e.g. the boost is only temporary and excessiveness is capped.

Generally speaking, the boost will generally max out after at most 2 surrenders on the same turn, e.g. having 2 or more on the same turn will not make any difference to an individual unit morale boost due to the surrender of a nation.

There is however no cumulative bottom, at the moment, for a decrease in your opponents morale. But even here this effect is temporary, and especially so for units in good supply, as after a few turns their regular value will normalize again as well.

[Judgementday]

Good afternoon Hubert,

Thank you for the follow up message.

Given that five minors can easily be saved (Lux, Neth, Denmark, Yugo, French Indo.) with three + (Norway, Greece, Tunis...) doable with some effort, for a strategic conquest over the course of a three/four-month period, the cumulative effect is devastating. Three to four months for this to play out it NOT temporary. It can easy change the course of the war.

I really hope that some changes can be made, or All Axis players not already knowing about this, do now. Making the matter even worse.

The point of bringing this to light, is to get a fix in place. Maybe play test it with Fog of War off so you can see for yourself the significance of this exploit.

[BillRunacre]

Good afternoon Hubert,

Thank you for the follow up message.

Given that five minors can easily be saved (Lux, Neth, Denmark, Yugo, French Indo.) with three + (Norway, Greece, Tunis...) doable with some effort, for a strategic conquest over the course of a three/four-month period, the cumulative effect is devastating. Three to four months for this to play out it NOT temporary. It can easy change the course of the war.

I really hope that some changes can be made, or All Axis players not already knowing about this, do now. Making the matter even worse.

The point of bringing this to light, is to get a fix in place. Maybe play test it with Fog of War off so you can see for yourself the significance of this exploit.

Is everyone agreed that this list is pretty much it in terms of which countries the Axis avoid attacking until later simply to benefit from the morale boost?

I'm surprised at Yugoslavia though given the pro-Allied coup event.

[Hubert Cater]

Good afternoon Hubert,

Thank you for the follow up message.

Given that five minors can easily be saved (Lux, Neth, Denmark, Yugo, French Indo.) with three + (Norway, Greece, Tunis...) doable with some effort, for a strategic conquest over the course of a three/four-month period, the cumulative effect is devastating. Three to four months for this to play out it NOT temporary. It can easy change the course of the war.

I really hope that some changes can be made, or All Axis players not already knowing about this, do now. Making the matter even worse.

The point of bringing this to light, is to get a fix in place. Maybe play test it with Fog of War off so you can see for yourself the significance of this exploit.

Thanks and yes I can see how saving up these minors and then using them by stringing along surrenders over a three to four month period could have potentially problematic results that go against the spirit of the original intention of the national morale bonus, and subsequent decrease for your opponents, e.g. it helps to recreate the Spring of 1940 Blitzkrieg like effects when the Germans roll through the Low Countries and towards Paris, but outside of that, based on your description, it seems to have been taken to a bit of an extreme for sure.

Perhaps a sliding scale of diminished returns on conquest and National Morale effects the further along you are in the war, and also dependent on just how many surrenders have been achieved, e.g. under the notion that over time these types of surrenders become less shocking and your opponents become more resilient to its effects.

This way you still have, ideally, the same benefits early on, and still some benefits later on in the war, but not to the same degree you are currently experiencing/seeing.

That's just off the top of my head and doesn't eliminate the possibility, it will still be there, but perhaps not as impactful and then players can decide if they are better off saving those surrenders (and loss of earlier MPPs) or not as there would then ideally be more of a pro vs con on this type of game play mechanic decision.

Bill and I are also discussing and I'm sure we can come up with something that improves the situation one way or the other.

[petedalby]

An interesting thread. In a current game my Axis opponent chose not to invade Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark or Greece. French Indo-China also remains. Yugo went down after the coup.

He made an early DoW on Holland which brought in Belgium automatically. As well as the potential benefits described, the bigger issue for me is that USA mobilisation is the lowest I've ever seen.

Personally I don't have a problem with it. I think it is good game management. Presumably the Axis MMPs are lower as a result? And of course it gives the Allies other options / opportunities.

I elected to invade Denmark to take out the German navy when Barbarossa started. Unfortunately that hit the US mobilisation much harder than I expected.

I think your proposed solutions(s) are on the right track. If the typical invasion timeline isn't followed, perhaps any morale or mobilisation penalty could be much reduced?

As ever - thanks for listening gentlemen.

[Bavre]

Hi Pete,

assuming that is our match:
Yes I do have a plan regarding surrender bonuses. Though it is far more complicated and ambitious (+risky) then what Judgementday described. If it works it should be a good showcase for this whole problematic.

Btw, some crazy moves on your part too, man. This is surely no conventional match

Oh and can Yugo really be saved for later? I was always under the assumption that it joins one side in 41 depending on the decision of the Allied player.

[Bavre]

Is everyone agreed that this list is pretty much it in terms of which countries the Axis avoid attacking until later simply to benefit from the morale boost?

I'm surprised at Yugoslavia though given the pro-Allied coup event.

I disagree, far more is possible and from a completely different source. Believe me the troop morale from a few spared European minors is pocket change compared to the effects of well synced German/Japanese conquests powering each other. The real motherlode of troop morale buffs is in the pacific.

[Judgementday]

Good evening Hubert,

Thank you for the reply. I look forward to seeing an adjustment to address this issue.

Appreciate your support.

And to all that have replied, Especially Bavre, who helped confirm that this is an issue that needs a fix. Thank you for you input.

GL/HF, Happy Hunting. Earn your Victory!