Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

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Emx77
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Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Emx77 »

In my current game, I'm facing situations where game does not show attack odds for some battles. For example, here I have full brigade arround Green Frogs and game reports UNKNOWN ODDS despite the fact I have relatively good recon on enemy unit.

Fig.1 Unknown odds
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Scen03.png
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Also notice UNIT FEAT MODIFIERS FOR ATTACK VALUES for my infatry units are -100%, and CUMULATIVE MODIFIER is -100%. Meaning my attack fails with heavy losses although I have much better units and enemy is almost completely encirceled.

Fig. 2 Everything is fine if I use armor instead of infantry
Scen02.png
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If I use only tank unit, I get odds 1:1.1 and there is no weird modifiers. This is just one example, I have other similar examples in same game involving different units.

I suspect this is bug, but would like to hear other opinnions before reporting.
Cassini
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Cassini »

You are attacking a 'chitinous' animal (armored) with low quality infantry weapons.
Combat Odds.jpg
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The MINUS 100% indicator is what is causing no odds being displayed - you are effectively going in without any effective offensive firepower.
Combat Odds 2.jpg
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With the tank (2nd screenshot), the firepower does have effect - notice NO minus 100% in the display...

Early on, you are SERIOUSLY lacking in firepower that can be used against armored targets. Making things worse for you, is that the animal is 'territorial' and an 'omnivore' - meaning it will attack you. However, it has low attack values so it shouldn't cause too many problems.

The best bet is to create a brigade and 'screen' any area you don't want it to enter. Odds are it will wander off. You will have to put up with an elevated danger level if it is near your city hex (or asset hex), but until you have sufficient offensive firepower - best let it be and focus on expansion elsewhere. Once you get some GR equipment, THAT will deal with these critters without too much fuss.

If you have a planet with many 'chitinous' critters, get a light tank design with high velocity guns and go hunting (best use a light armor brigade to clear out all these armored animals).
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Emx77
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Emx77 »

Cassini, thank you for clarification. It makes sense now. Animal is not just 'chitinous' but has Absorption IV feat (Hits on critter often do not register if unmodified attack values is not higher than unmodified hitpoints). I didn't pay attention on enemy unit feats.

However, this is more difficult to explain. Please, take a look at fig. 4.

Fig. 4 Attack on Reptiloids militia with unknown odds
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Scen05.png
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My units are infantry soldiers armed with automatic rifles and combat armor (248 hitpoints, soft attack/defense is 54/107 , hard attack/defense is 27/54, with morale and readiness at 100). Enemy milita unit does not have any feats. Still, unit feats modifier for my attack is -100%. Why?

EDIT: Could this be a reason?

Fig. 5 Individual report
Scen06.png
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Here we see that militia unit has "Amorphous feat" which negates attack. However, this feat is not listed on unit info (fig. 4). How exactly this feat negates attack? How to counter it? And why this feat is not listed in unit info?
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Emx77
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Emx77 »

JeanleChauve wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:24 pm Can you post the save?
Sure thing. Save attached. Map coordinates: 0,12.
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Cassini
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Cassini »

You are attacking across a rather significant 'river' (thus the minus 60 modifier).

As to the amorphous issue - there is something going on here. It looks like the created creature has this characteristic WITHOUT it being listed in the unit description. This wouldn't shock me at all (given how things have developed) and you only found it by doing the detailed report (many things are 'present' in the game WITHOUT being specifically listed). This is slowly being corrected - but don't be shocked to find more instances of this throughout the game. The game DOES NOT have any sort of built in 'balancing mechanism' to make sure you have a 'fair chance' against whatever starting conditions are present. So the longer alien life has to evolve on a planet - the tougher that life will be. YOU must compensate by starting with a higher initial tech level and multiple zone start-up. The only way you gain a 'feel' for this is through playing on multiple games and developing a level of intuition for what is happening and how to adapt to it.

About the only REAL solution to this, is to start off with a higher tech level - thus giving you the firepower and recon to deal with alien life early on in the game. This is one of the issues that has slowly crept into the game since its original beta testing 2 years ago - the 'fauna' has become more and more sophisticated it seems (it seems).

I find it nearly impossible to start a game on tech level 3 with no starting army, single zone and slowed tech development any more (with any form of alien life wandering around). I just get swamped in the first 10-15 rounds in these situations. That second critter - if it indeed possesses the amorphous characteristic - would be virtually impossible to battle with low quality infantry alone. You would have to use armor or aircraft to gradually wear it down. The higher tech weaponry with the higher recon levels available would be able to deal with this critter rather easily. Using artillery and airpower to wear down this creature and lower readiness would be another way to deal with it.

It looks like you had a VERY long time period of evolution occur on the planet you created (I'd say at least 2 billion years given the sophistication of those critters), so you are going to be faced with a VERY difficult time dealing with them with anything less than tech level 4 and multiple zone start up.
Entangler Rhino.jpg
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Here is a critter from a game I just ended (playtesting Oceania so I started a new game under latest version) that just gave me FITS. It would be present in VERY large herds and had the amorphous V characteristic. The only way I could deal with it (using pure infantry) was to surround it with 3 entire brigades of troops equipped with auto rifles and combat armor - and do so in clear terrain. This thing pretty much wandered where ever it wanted to and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. The only saving grace about it was that it wasn't aggressive. This was on a planet that only had a billion years of evolution (I started at level 3 tech, 1 army, extremely slow tech development). It wasn't until about round 50 that I could start to effectively deal with it.

Hope this gives you some insight.
JeanleChauve
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by JeanleChauve »

The reptiloid militia are the same units as the green frogs, but unlike the latter, they are sapiens, carry a weapon and have technology.
If you look at their scientific name, you will see that it is the same: maxicoelacanth talpa.
We can assume that the developer must have run out of space to add the feats to the sapiens.
On the other hand, amorphous is missing.

If I were you, I would file a bug.
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Emx77
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Emx77 »

Cassini wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:02 pm It looks like you had a VERY long time period of evolution occur on the planet you created (I'd say at least 2 billion years given the sophistication of those critters), so you are going to be faced with a VERY difficult time dealing with them with anything less than tech level 4 and multiple zone start up.
I didn't know that. I've checked. Evolution started 3.95 billion years ago on this specific planet :shock:. I had tough times at beginning. Started with T3, slow research and one zone. Very quickly, major regime on eastern border declared war and invaded my territory. I was surprised to find they have combat armor and automatic rifles while I was still researching padded envirosuits. Somehow I managed to stop them by digging units into forest belt (+150 entrenchment bonus), by putting my HQ's on defense (+40 defense bonus) and by playing "Docile AI" cards to bolster defence with walkers.

If I understand correctly, on older planets it should be easier to find metals, right? Despite my planet is 4.3 billions years old, geologically active and with 100% heavy elements, I've never found single metal mine! Lack of metal is still most limiting factor for further expansion. I compensated that by building recycling facilities on ruins. But problem with that is that I don't have much ruins and scavenge points are slowly depleting. I hope for discovery of "Metal Soil Filtration" tech to compensate this lack of metals.
Cassini wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:02 pm The only way you gain a 'feel' for this is through playing on multiple games and developing a level of intuition for what is happening and how to adapt to it.
According to Steam, I've spent 355 hours on Shadow Empire plus, I don't know how many, hours before Steam. So, I can say I have developed enough intuition. :) However, this game is fascinating and I'm still learning. And your explanation helped me to deepen the knowledge.
Cassini wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:02 pm Hope this gives you some insight.
Surely it gives. :)
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Emx77
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by Emx77 »

JeanleChauve wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:06 pm If I were you, I would file a bug.
I've reported it in Tech Support section.
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BlueTemplar
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Re: Unknown odds and weird modifiers - Possible bug?

Post by BlueTemplar »

Yeah, no metal mines early on puts you at a huge disadvantage compared to other majors...

Have you tried using Sentinels against those units ?
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