Advanced Third Reich Mod Discussion Thread

[pzgndr]

Firstly, I'd like to thank Batavian, JawBreaker, Franciscus, and PHalen for commenting on the other Advanced Third Reich mod v1.3 for v1.16.02 Update thread. There have been quite a few downloads and favorable comments.

PHalen has spent some time making some graphics mods and emailed me a few times. With an eye towards updating to v1.4 at some point, I'm going to share his comments and my responses. There is certainly some room for improvement and I'm willing to get back to this, so I'm going to open this up for more discussion.

I will emphasize that I am still working full-time and most of my "free time" is spent on code development for Empires in Arms. That project has proven to be more challenging than expected. I hope to get out another official update this spring, and after that I can shift gears back to A3R. I did take a break last year to playtest WarPlan, but I haven't had time to play much of A3R or WP. Anyways, that's the deal. Next posts will have PHalen's comments and my responses, and then we can go from there.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: PHalen

I was pleasantly surprised to note that your SC3 WiE A3R mod works fine on my Bleached Map mod, so I went ahead and made some modded A3R NATO counters, according to my preferences and initially intended for personal use.

You’ll probably not agree with my color choices etc. but if you like my NATO counters concept I’d be happy to make you something similar according to your color, symbols & shape preferences etc.

The attached .zip file also includes some other modded files that I use. Such as Phillipeatbays flag mod that I’m a big fan of.

Have a look & let me know if you find something interesting!

I appreciate your interest. The custom counters I made, plain as they are, are intended to replicate the original boardgame counters. You and others are free to customize them further, but I will stick with my nostalgic originals. I like the bleached map work you have done!

ORIGINAL: PHalen

Thanks for your reply.
I see & certainly appreciate your intent to replicate the original boardgame counters.
I'll keep my modded A3R counters for personal use.

A couple of A3R counter questions:
Why are there two rows of US Fleet counters?
Why are there two rows of UK & US ASW counters?
I assume the UK Special Forces, German Artillery & Rockets and USSR Artillery counters get activated by some events and/or variants, right?

Glad you like the Bleached Map!

Quick answers. Second US fleets are for variant where US gets 2 fleets from Pacific. This way the player can have +2 fleets without affecting the regular force pool. If the extras are lost, they cannot be rebuilt. And the UK/US ASW I think was set up early on when I was considering destroyers/battleships/carriers but changed back to generic fleets, or something; I can't remember. Anyways, only ASW is used. And yes, variants activate the special units.

I think the variants provide some subtle flavor to the game without being too significant. It helps with replayability, not knowing for sure what to expect!

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: PHalen

I’ve just completed my first A3R campaign as Allies and had a ball!
So thanks again for the A3R mod!
I learned that the Russian Siberian transfer 3-5 Armored corps also cannot be rebuilt if lost.

Some other observations, queries & feedback:

1. UK, US & Allied Minor ASW units use the same - first - counter regardless of their ASW tech level. No issue for your vanilla A3R mod but I use modded counters with naval unit silhouettes that change according to tech levels. Can I edit this myself so that ASW units with ASW tech 1 use the second counter etc. (Just like Fleets, U-boats & all air units do)?
2. The Canadian units (one Fighter & one 1-3 Infantry corps) cannot be transported or strategically redeployed to Europe. Not even if I first move them to the US.
3. Finnish units get hit by Russian winter. I don’t think they should be.
4. Yugoslavian, Russian & Greek Partisans can reinforce to 5 at 3 supply, but French Partisans cannot.
5. At the liberation of France, all Free French units lose any research upgrades they had while under UK control. I recall & believe & that this may still be a vanilla SC3 issue?
Since liberated French units primarily were US equipped, I think they should be upgradeable to US research levels. Not automatically but as & if paid by France.
6. After liberation, Yugoslavia (UK) can purchase research upgraded Infantry & Fighter units. But Belgium cannot. Not sure about the Netherlands etc.
7. Giving Montgomery a level 10 rating feels a bit generous.
And controversial considering that Patton is level 8…
I would give Montgomery a level 8 rating.

I totally understand & appreciate that you must have put lots of thoughts into the research trees. I’d nevertheless like to try out some tweaks. But I’ve never used the Editor so any hints about how to make the following adjustments would be much appreciated:
- Skip Motorization research altogether.
- Limit C&C research to max 2 for Germany, UK, USA & USSR only
- Add Infantry Weapons research (max 1 for Germany, UK, USA & USSR only).
- Add Advanced Tanks research (max 2 for Germany, UK, USA & USSR only).
- Add Anti-Aircraft Defense research (max 2 or 3 for Germany, UK, USA & USSR only. Max 1 for all other nations). Because two Tac Bomber strikes obliterates just about any unit.

For the comments:
1. Each row of icons has 6 counters for all tech levels 0-5, so yes the second would be L1, etc. I kept the generic counters the same, as tech level is indicated on the counter.
2. The Canadians are purely for home defense and cannot be deployed. The 1 Can and 2 Can units are part of the British force pool per the original boardgame.
3. All Axis units get affected by Russian Winter. Maybe this changed with the WAW game? If there's something new in WIE then I can relook this.
4. Not sure why?
5. May be an SC3 issue and not my mod. Are these motorization upgrades for FF? I usually don't bother.
6. I think for Axis Minors and larger minors (Yugoslavia, Spain, Turkey) that I set upgradeable in the editor, but not the others? We can reconsider this.
7. My A3R HQs have names/personalities for flavor, but really they are Army Group HQs representing relative national capability. And they arrive on the P/Q at preset times. Axis has the advantage during the early years and Allies gain the advantage during the later years. It's not so much Montgomery deserves a 10 but Britain needs a 10.

Thoughts on adjustments:
1. I included Motorization to help offset the whole movement factor abstraction. With single stacking I essentially doubled the map scale but kept the original MFs. Certainly some units could move 3 times during a quarter (3 turns), but usually 1 or 2 turns are a pause for reinforcements/upgrades and then weather (mud) can slow units down. So a little extra boost for some units is OK.
2. Limit C&C to 2. Is this a noticeable issue? Not sure it gets too high or if that's a problem. You are welcome to experiment with the editor on the research screen to restrict the tech levels. Look at what I did for subs and ASW for L3.
3/4. I purposely did not include infantry and tanks research for the same reason John Prados used the same counters: relative improvements are assumed to occur on both sides throughout the war. In early versions of this A3R mod in SC2, I noticed a bad "snowball effect" with tech + elite + experience to the point where Russia could not push back on Germany. I did previously use tank research for German 4-6 to 5-6 armor and Russian 3-5 to 4-5, but SC3 added more unit slots so the force pools are more accurate now.
5. AA. Yes, we could add AA upgrades to units, but maybe better (and easier) to reconsider the Tac Bombers and knock them down a notch.

I learned that the Russian Siberian transfer 3-5 Armored corps also cannot be rebuilt if lost.

It's possible to get "extra" armor, more than the force pool limits. In this case, the extra units cannot be rebuilt.

Alright. Good comments. I think most of this mod is rock-solid these days but certainly some fiddling and adjustments could help. Anyone else who has played and has comments or suggestions, please speak up. Thanks!!

[Batavian]

Bill,

I really can't think of much to improve. Anything I can think of is really more nit-picky than anything else. I love the mod and play it far more than the standard vanilla scenarios that come with the game.

The only things that come to mind were the convoy bug in which the game would crash if Germany had control of the English ports. I submitted that to Hubert.

And I only play your mod with Welk's board game mod. The dark map that comes with the game is just not as pretty as the board game map.

Thank you again for all your hard work.

[ericdauriac]

Hi,

I would have liked to impose force pools. Do you accept that I use your mod as a starting point?

Regards

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac
I would have liked to impose force pools. Do you accept that I use your mod as a starting point?

I don't understand. The boardgame force pools are implemented, and there are variants for some additional units. But otherwise a faithful implementation. If you select the Soft Build Limits option then you can exceed force pool limits, but they are there. For further mods, certainly. That's why I provided all editor files, so folks can customize or experiment with different ideas.

ORIGINAL: Batavian
I really can't think of much to improve. Anything I can think of is really more nit-picky than anything else.

Yes, we're definitely at the nit-picking stage now! I am a little concerned that C&C research might be too much, and that tac bombers might be too strong. Not sure about C&C because I doubt either players or AI get too far with that and even if they did then does it matter that much? For tac bombers I spent a lot of time going back and forth between them being too strong and not strong enough. Certainly the AI on higher difficulty gets an extra bonus on tac bomber strikes and can be oppressive. But what about hth play and what do others think, are they 'just right' or need to be knocked down a notch?

I'm also curious about Allied AI response to a successful Sealion if UK relocates to Canada. Has anybody gotten to that point and did Allied AI eventually invade Britain? If anything, that's one area that might need adjustments. Other than that I'm not sure what to mess with at this point. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[ericdauriac]

Sorry for my bad English, I'm not making myself understood.

My idea is to allow players to get units only from the production queue. They don't have the possibility to buy units except those put in the force pool by the production queue (or those put on the map by the "units" file).

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac
My idea is to allow players to get units only from the production queue. They don't have the possibility to buy units except those put in the force pool by the production queue (or those put on the map by the "units" file).

Your idea is pretty unprecedented for a grand strategy WWII game? Most players want to customize their unit builds to support whatever strategy they want to pursue.

If you try to implement your idea for your own use, be aware that force pool limits will restrict you to those numbers for placing units on the map or on the P/Q. Which may be fine for the early years but does not provide players a means for replacing destroyed units. Not practical, IMHO. Good luck.

[pzgndr]

Adding to discussion here. Like Goldilocks, we need to figure out if air and naval attacks on ground units is too much, too little, or just right. I am mostly interested in any pbem AARs between two players, and whether play balance is OK or not with the current air and naval attacks. Against the AI at higher difficulty, yeah, I know some of those attacks get pretty unrealistic but the AI needs the help.

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: TangSooDo
The one thing I find pretty unrealistic, and I confess I don't remember how this plays in the original boardgame, is the ability of fleets to do significant damage to land or air units on a coast. It just seems a bit excessive.

The boardgame restricted shore bombardment to only support seaborne invasions, and not for exploitation attacks or any other hex not under attack by seaborne invasion. This is one of those issues with the SC game mechanics; if you allow some shore bombardment capability then naval units are free to bombard anywhere. Ditto for air ground support, which should be restricted to supporting ground attacks and not able to freely attack any units anywhere (and ultimately being able to destroy land units with either air or naval attack).

So the issue boils down to whether air and naval attacks are 'too' powerful by themselves or not. On my other v1.4 discussion thread I mentioned that I might reconsider Tac Bombers and knock them down a notch for ground attack. Maybe also reconsider Fleets. My nagging concern is that even a 1 factor reduction might be too much, but maybe not?

[pzgndr]

Version 1.18.00 is now available...
GAME ENGINE CHANGES
•Added new functionality for any EVENT script that uses the #CONDITION_POSITION field. See Templates\Events for more details in the NOTES section of the header of the applicable files.

I will review my EVENT scripts to see if improvements could be made. I am also leaning towards slightly reducing the air and naval attacks on land units, and also naval-naval combats so fleets are not so easily destroyed and require full rebuilds.

I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel with Empires in Arms and expect to get an official patch wrapped up in the next few months. Then I can shift gears back to WWII and play with A3R more. Again, please provide any other ideas you may have for improving this mod, particularly for head-to-head play between two experienced players.

[Batavian]

Thanks Bill.

Hard for me to come up with any improvements. I love the mod and have now recommended it to my father to play. Reasons I love it are that I recall the old Avalon Hill board game which was my favorite. Your mod is the best rendition of that game. Also, I find it simpler than the standard campaigns that come with the game. More "beer and pretzels" versus "grognard".

Nit picky stuff mainly has to do with the AI. This is not for you to address per se. After playing many games, it is what it is. Only way to make it more challenging is the usual way to make AI's in any game more challenging. Give them big advantages in resources.

Maybe create a script to make the conquest of Norway by an AI Germany a fait accompli, like some of the other mods. A German AI does an extremely poor job of trying to manage an amphibious assault. I have found they end up marooning many high quality units in Norway that slowly waste away due to out-of-supply attrition.

When playing as the Axis, could there be an option not to accept giving the USSR eastern Poland? Of course, make the trade off that Russia might enter the war sooner.

Any other ideas with variants is all I could suggest. At the moment, I can't think of any ideas. The list of variants as it stands now provides a nice change of pace from game to game.

Thank you again for all the hard work.

[pzgndr]

Batavian, thanks, good feedback. Have you played head-to-head games or just against AI? I'm trying to get a better sense of whether two human players need the air and naval attacks reduced or not. Certainly when playing the AI with bonuses, these can be unrealistic but still the overall play balance seems OK. I don't want to fix it if it isn't broken.

For the other AI ideas, I can work on those. Norway is certainly a challenge for Axis AI if Britain commits to it, but also tough for Allied player on higher difficulty if AI performs well. Eastern Poland should be an option, I agree.

[Batavian]

I have not played a game versus a human yet. I am trying to get my father up to speed on the game and will try a game with him at some point.

Versus the AI, my experience has been that ships can fairly easily destroy a land unit that is on a non-city coastal hex by hitting it with multiple ships. About 5 ship attacks (knocking off 2 hit points per attack) is about all it takes.

I do not have any complaints with this mechanic. The downside to any of the attacking ships that do not make it back to a safe port after striking a land unit is that the ship leaves itself open to air attacks the very next turn. The risk of losing a 400 BRP ship just to kill off a 45 BRP infantry or 120 BRP armor/air is a high price to pay.

[pzgndr]

I have taken a look at the combat data. There are a few things that I will try:
1. Slight reduction of tac bomber ground attack values for France, Russia, and Italy. From 3 to 2.5, similar to fighter DRMs.
2. Slight reduction of naval attack values for fleets, -0.5.
3. Slight reduction for ground attack values (shore bombardment) for fleets, -0.5.
4. I think fighter air-air attack values are OK but I may try slight reduction, -0.5.

One other significant change is an error I found in the research upgrades for tac bombers. For fighters and fleets I reduced upgrades to 0.5 per level but its still 1 for tac bombers. This explains why they tend to get too powerful later in the game. So I will reduce these to 0.5 per level.

Overall, this shouldn't change things too much (except the later tac bombers) and allow air and naval units to endure a bit longer. Ground units under tac bomber attack and on coastal hexes under shore bombardment should endure a bit longer. I think this would resolve most of the comments. I also want to relook the scripts for the recent #CONDITION_POSITION changes.

My plan is to start on the v1.4 update and run a couple of playtest games (as Axis, and as Allies) to see for myself how things look. SO maybe after the new year I'll have something to post.

I've thought some more about the eastern Poland option. For Germany to renege on the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact would most certainly prompt an earlier war with Russia, maybe immediately and maybe not. Germany is already free to DOW Russia whenever they want to, and if that's the strategy a player wants to use then they are already able to try it. It sets up a two-front war of course, with pros and cons. Except for the Lvov resource in exchange for a variable Russia mobilization increase, I just don't see it as a viable option?

[pzgndr]

I have not forgotten about my A3R mod. I am seeing light at the end of the tunnel for wrapping up the next update for Empires in Arms. Once I get that done, I want to take a break and get back to this. Probably next month some time.

[armuss]

Where can i download the latest version?

[argilas]

You can download v1.4 in this link

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 3&t=373583

[armuss]

Very thanks!

[Elessar2]

Quick heads up pzgndr, the designer of 3R John Prados passed on recently. If it weren't for 3R I'd never would have caught the grand strategy bug.

[Batavian]

Quick heads up pzgndr, the designer of 3R John Prados passed on recently. If it weren't for 3R I'd never would have caught the grand strategy bug.

Sorry to hear this. Thanks for posting the news.

Like you, 3R was my first love when it came to wargames.