Heavy Escorts (and by extension, Heavy Frigates)

[StormingKiwi]

I'm pulling this derailment from a separate, unrelated thread, and putting it here:

Heavy Escorts and Heavy Frigates are an oddity. From Heavy Destroyers and up, every Heavy Ship Type Hull retains the bonuses granted to the basic Hull and adds to them.

The conversation so far:

Also - for the three hulls for Escorts:
The basic Escort has two engines with +20% ship speed and maneuvering, the Patrol Escort has three engines with +30% ship speed and maneuvering. The Heavy escort has two engines, 0% bonus ship speed and maneuvering and +10% to countermeasures.

Ships with the same components (except Escort - it has one less fuel tank).
4488 credit Escort: 21.9 Attack, 71.4 Defence, 14.6 S&M, 533M range.
5156 credit Patrol Escort: 21.9 Attack, 71.3 Defence, 20.6 S&M, 628M range.
4960 credit Heavy Escort: 21.9 Attack, 74.3 Defence, 9.8 S&M, 634M range.

I think a 110% increase in S&M at the cost of 4% more credits, 4% less defence and 1% less range is a no-brainer.

When you get a new larger hull for the same role, it's generally intended that the smaller/older hull is no longer worth using. However, there are often multiple hulls of the same size (like Patrol or Heavy Escort) which may be worth using in different ways at the same time, which is why the system now supports by default a "Latest Design for Same Hull" upgrade path in those cases.

Regards,

- Erik

When you get a new larger hull for the same role, it's generally intended that the smaller/older hull is no longer worth using. However, there are often multiple hulls of the same size (like Patrol or Heavy Escort) which may be worth using in different ways at the same time, which is why the system now supports by default a "Latest Design for Same Hull" upgrade path in those cases.

Regards,

- Erik

I believe you have missed the point as it is written.
When you research one tech, you gain access to "Heavy and Patrol" escorts. Heavy escorts do not appear to be worth using at all.

Refer to the numbers provided:
Their only advantage over the basic design is one extra general component, which I put a fuel tank in, yielding 20% more range.
By the other measures: they are equivalent, almost equivalent, and much worse. Their cost is higher.

"It is generally intended that the smaller/older hull is no longer worth using" - this is my understanding. So why is the Heavy Escort only trivially tanker and marginally better than the Basic Escort on a measure that doesn't even matter for the assumptions baked into a ship of its class/"Distant Worlds role"? This is a clear data error.

"This is a clear data error"
so wrong... larger maximum size ( by 40 i think ), 1 more weapon slot, higher countermeasures, and donno what else

"This is a clear data error"
so wrong... larger maximum size ( by 40 i think ), 1 more weapon slot, higher countermeasures, and donno what else

This is a clear data error.

Escort Hulls.png

Heavy Escorts do not have 1 more weapon slot. They have 2 mediums instead of a small and a medium.
Additionally, compared to the basic hull, they have 1 more general component. Compared to the patrol hull, they have 1 less engine.
And that's it.

There's no conceivable scenario where you would build the heavy rather than the basic, patrol or a different ship type.

15 of their larger maximum size is taken up by the larger size of the hull before components are added.
10% higher countermeasures do not significantly improve survivability. Besides, the 10% increase in countermeasures is achieved by sacrificing speed and maneuverability bonuses from the base hull.

Sure, two Medium weapons could be put on it, increasing its DPS a small amount. However, anything faster than it is going to be able to get out of weapon range easily. Anything that outranges it will be able to kite it indefinitely. This ship is slow.



Escort Capabilities Data.png

I believe you have missed the point as it is written.
When you research one tech, you gain access to "Heavy and Patrol" escorts. Heavy escorts do not appear to be worth using at all.

Refer to the numbers provided:
Their only advantage over the basic design is one extra general component, which I put a fuel tank in, yielding 20% more range.
By the other measures: they are equivalent, almost equivalent, and much worse. Their cost is higher.

"It is generally intended that the smaller/older hull is no longer worth using" - this is my understanding. So why is the Heavy Escort only trivially tanker and marginally better than the Basic Escort on a measure that doesn't even matter for the assumptions baked into a ship of its class/"Distant Worlds role"? This is a clear data error.

I disagree that Heavy Escorts are not worth using. First the additional 10% Countermeasures is significant enough that they lose their speed/maneuver bonuses in exchange. A Countermeasures-heavy Escort can be surprisingly survivable. They also have varying slot benefits by faction. Generally they get an extra weapon and an extra general slot, but the comparison to the base escort will vary depending on which Race you play.

A Heavy Escort is larger and able to fight better than a base Escort. The Patrol Escort is more well-rounded, but in a straight up fight the Heavy will usually beat it. That's what the Heavy is for, if the player just wants to maximize firepower while sacrificing maneuverability. The Patrol Escort is generally more likely to be able to get out of a situation where it's overmatched and better able to "kite" if the design supports it.

Regards,

- Erik

Sure, two Medium weapons could be put on it, increasing its DPS a small amount. However, anything faster than it is going to be able to get out of weapon range easily. Anything that outranges it will be able to kite it indefinitely. This ship is slow.

I'm impressed with your comparison chart!

To be clear about design intent though, I would not consider the increase you show of 12.8 dps to 17 to be trivial. That's a pretty significant increase in DPS. Medium weapons on average have twice the DPS of small weapons of the same type, so in most designs with two weapons, the Heavy should offer about 25% more DPS than the Patrol as well as having better defenses in its increased Countermeasures. That countermeasure difference will effectively decrease enemy DPS by about 10% as well. All together, its a noticeable swing, but the Heavy is not the best at everything and it's not intended to be. For your playstyle or design preferences, it sounds like the Patrol Escort is what you want but I think some will look at the trade-offs and decide on the Heavy instead.

Regards,

- Erik

"This is a clear data error"

That's because ship setups are race dependent, and you didn't mention humans. I was talking about ackdarians. So heavy escorts are worth using, maybe not for humans if you don't value that 10 extra countermeasures

One of my posts had images, here they are:

Hulls:

Escort Hulls.png (120.95 KiB) Viewed 1706 times

Comparison chart:

Escort Capabilities Data.png (99.12 KiB) Viewed 1706 times

---

[StormingKiwi]

I believe you have missed the point as it is written.
When you research one tech, you gain access to "Heavy and Patrol" escorts. Heavy escorts do not appear to be worth using at all.

Refer to the numbers provided:
Their only advantage over the basic design is one extra general component, which I put a fuel tank in, yielding 20% more range.
By the other measures: they are equivalent, almost equivalent, and much worse. Their cost is higher.

"It is generally intended that the smaller/older hull is no longer worth using" - this is my understanding. So why is the Heavy Escort only trivially tanker and marginally better than the Basic Escort on a measure that doesn't even matter for the assumptions baked into a ship of its class/"Distant Worlds role"? This is a clear data error.

I disagree that Heavy Escorts are not worth using. First the additional 10% Countermeasures is significant enough that they lose their speed/maneuver bonuses in exchange. A Countermeasures-heavy Escort can be surprisingly survivable. They also have varying slot benefits by faction. Generally they get an extra weapon and an extra general slot, but the comparison to the base escort will vary depending on which Race you play.

A Heavy Escort is larger and able to fight better than a base Escort. The Patrol Escort is more well-rounded, but in a straight up fight the Heavy will usually beat it. That's what the Heavy is for, if the player just wants to maximize firepower while sacrificing maneuverability. The Patrol Escort is generally more likely to be able to get out of a situation where it's overmatched and better able to "kite" if the design supports it.

Sure, two Medium weapons could be put on it, increasing its DPS a small amount. However, anything faster than it is going to be able to get out of weapon range easily. Anything that outranges it will be able to kite it indefinitely. This ship is slow.

I'm impressed with your comparison chart!

To be clear about design intent though, I would not consider the increase you show of 12.8 dps to 17 to be trivial. That's a pretty significant increase in DPS. Medium weapons on average have twice the DPS of small weapons of the same type, so in most designs with two weapons, the Heavy should offer about 25% more DPS than the Patrol as well as having better defenses in its increased Countermeasures. That countermeasure difference will effectively decrease enemy DPS by about 10% as well. All together, its a noticeable swing, but the Heavy is not the best at everything and it's not intended to be. For your playstyle or design preferences, it sounds like the Patrol Escort is what you want but I think some will look at the trade-offs and decide on the Heavy instead.


Regards,

- Erik

Thank you for the compliment about the comparison chart. I wasn’t sure it would be presentable.
Thank you for clarifying design intent and rationale as well.

The issue is that practice is more complicated than theory, and I have never been particularly interested in theories that do not work in practice.

As I have repeatedly stated, Heavy Escorts are not worth using.

Here’s why:

The increase in DPS is marginal.
Sacrificing S&M for more countermeasures also influences outgoing DPS.
DPS is a function of weapon damage and time within range.
While in range, the outgoing DPS is 100% of its potential value.
While out of range, the outgoing DPS is 0% of its potential value.
Is 0% DPS or 100% DPS better?

The survivability (tankier) afforded by the countermeasures is trivial.
10% more countermeasures, according to you, reduces incoming DPS to 90% of its potential value.
Getting out of range reduces incoming DPS to 0% of its potential value.
Is a 10% reduction or a 100% reduction better?

When facing bases or anything with weapons longer-range than the escort, it is non-existent:
Heavy Escorts are 20% slower than Basic Escorts: they will spend 25% more time within range of an enemy, and so take 25% more damage.
Is a 10% reduction of 1.25 or a 0% reduction of 1 better?

Survivability and DPS Combined: If you can afford 5 Heavy Escorts, you can save on ship cost by purchasing 6 Basic Escorts. 6 Basic Escorts will destroy a target in a little more time than 5 Heavy Escorts. However, it is less than 10% more time, so the Basic Escorts will not take 10% more damage. With their +20% to speed and manoeuvrability, they will get into range faster, so the whole battle (time to move within range plus time within range) takes less time overall.

“Yes, but it is supposed to work like this…”

It doesn’t.


Finally, there’s the discussion of intended deployment of a ship of type escort, hull Heavy Escort. According to the Galactopedia (quoted below), they are not intended to be in fleets.
Therefore, they will primarily be doing Escort, Guard and Patrol missions.
With Escort Missions, something will be attacking the escortee. So potentially the S&M does not matter, because the attacker will be closing the distance towards the escortee and escort.
With Guard Missions, something will be attacking the guard target – which are often planets where the guard is not in an immediate position to respond and has to manoeuvre under engines to reposition. It will take them 25% longer to do this, because they are 20% slower.
Patrol Missions have the same problem.

To summarise, for cases of an Escort (either Heavy or Basic) matched with a Target:
In cases where the speed difference between Escort and Target favours the Heavy Escort: 25% longer response time.
In cases where the range advantage between Escort and Target does not favour the Heavy Escort: More damage taken.
In cases where the speed difference between Escort and Target does not favour the Heavy Escort: The potential for a 100% reduction in damage inflicted, and a 100% increase in damage taken.
In cases where response time matters: The Basic Escort performs better.

Escorts are the first type of military ship you can build. They are the smallest type of military ship, and are lightly armed.

Escorts can be used in early fleets, when no other types of military ship are available. But they are better suited to escorting civilian ships.

[Jorgen_CAB]

In my opinion both have their uses even though that patrolling space is a red herring in DW and always was. There are no reason to have ships zipping about in a random way chasing civilian ships and guarding stations.

With that out of the way they still are useful as number of ships can be equally important as raw power.

The patrol escort is superb for distracting an opponent, using speed rather than firepower to keep even a more powerful ship busy. In this role they are not actually there to win the fight as much as distract opponent so other part of a fleet can focus their fire and defeat the opponent in detail.

The heavy escort have a very different role... their role is to distract the heavy strike force of a fleet from incoming fire. For this speed is not important, they are suppose to stay close to whatever ship they are escorting and using their countermeasures to blunt the enemy fire. At the same time they also can contribute to the fight with a reasonable amount of fire-power.

So these ships serve in VERY different roles and can not be compared on the same merits. A heavy escort should never be deployed on their own but as part of a battle-group. Patrol escorts on the other hand work very well as screening ships and in their own squadrons as distraction forces.

You should not underestimate the value of numbers in DW as one small ships can quite easily distract a far bigger ship for a relatively long time. At the same time, over reliance on numbers can also leave you lacking in raw firepower and stamina. You need to find a balance that works, this balance will differ between factions.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I also question the importance of DPS on escort ships as an important metric at all. Small ships like this have far too little stamina to provide reliable DPS in most cases to begin with.

If you argue that a ship have better DPS because it is fast to me seems more like a trap than anything... this is only valid if you outnumber or overmatch the opponent and at that point it probably does not matter anyway. A same size (resource wise) cruiser group will likely overmatch those escorts in both stamina and fire-power, the only thing the escort can do is distract them, but for that you can get away with a smaller force resource wise, while defeating them you need a substantially larger force resource wise.

I also would never use basic escorts if I can build the improved ones, the patrol version just is superior in almost all regards in it's intended role while the heavy escort have a totally different role.

[StormingKiwi]

<snip>

All points you have raised were addressed during the previous conversation and in my reply to those (second post of this thread).

The attempted strawman arguments you make are not relevant to this thread.

I also would never use basic escorts if I can build the improved ones, the patrol version just is superior in almost all regards in it's intended role while the heavy escort have a totally different role.

“Yes, but it is supposed to work like this…”

It doesn’t.

[Nightskies]

"In my opinion, escorts have these uses..."

AH BUT I INVALIDATED THOSE OPINIONS

"I think your metric is questionable..."

STRAWMAN!!!!!!!

/sigh

[Jorgen_CAB]

The attempted strawman arguments you make are not relevant to this thread.

Yeah sure... I just stated a fact... did not see a strawman here... I did say escorts still had uses in the game, just not for this specific purpose due to the randomness patrols are assigned and thus waste resources. Who is inventing a strawman here?!?

You really did not answer any of my actual points?

And don't point to comments you made in other threads... if you want to quote them here then fine, but then please do so. And no... you have not answered my points in your second post at all.

I also would argue that almost all of your assumption are based on the escort being the ONLY ship type present in a specific confrontation, that is a rather flawed assumption. I see no reason why speed is important if that means you rush 10-15% of your fleet to meet the enemy fleets alpha strike alone. In that case you would need to move them around the flanks and then use their distraction capabilities flanking the opponent... or if armed with PD they screen the main force and start intercepting missiles, torpedoes and fighters but withdraw before they enter into the enemy main weapon range and disperse.

Comparing them on their own make no sense, especially for the heavy escort that is not meant to operate on their own.

[StormingKiwi]

Jorgen, it takes effort to write a response to any post. Please give me the same courtesy I extend you and thoroughly read the posts you quote and respond to.

Strawman 1

In my opinion both have their uses …
The patrol escort is superb for distracting an opponent, using speed rather than firepower to keep even a more powerful ship busy. In this role they are not actually there to win the fight as much as distract opponent so other part of a fleet can focus their fire and defeat the opponent in detail.

The heavy escort have a very different role... their role is to distract the heavy strike force of a fleet from incoming fire. For this speed is not important, they are suppose to stay close to whatever ship they are escorting and using their countermeasures to blunt the enemy fire. At the same time they also can contribute to the fight with a reasonable amount of fire-power.

This thread is talking about Heavy Escorts and Heavy Frigates compared to their basic equivalents.

Not Patrol Escorts. Those are indisputably worth using.

Strawman 2

Therefore, they will primarily be doing Escort, Guard and Patrol missions.
With Escort Missions, something will be attacking the escortee. So potentially the S&M does not matter, because the attacker will be closing the distance towards the escortee and escort.
With Guard Missions, something will be attacking the guard target – which are often planets where the guard is not in an immediate position to respond and has to manoeuvre under engines to reposition. It will take them 25% longer to do this, because they are 20% slower.
Patrol Missions have the same problem.

even though that patrolling space is a red herring in DW and always was. There are no reason to have ships zipping about in a random way chasing civilian ships and guarding stations.
…
I did say escorts still had uses in the game, just not for this specific purpose due to the randomness patrols are assigned and thus waste resources. Who is inventing a strawman here?!?

Where did I say anything about patrolling space being an effective use of a ship, a mission and resources? That's a separate topic for a separate thread.

However, if a ship were to patrol space (or guard), then speed and manoeuvrability are important to carry out that mission effectively.

Heavy escorts are ineffective at carrying out their intended roles of operating independently from fleets. Basic escorts are better.

You really did not answer any of my actual points?
And don't point to comments you made in other threads... if you want to quote them here then fine, but then please do so. And no... you have not answered my points in your second post at all.

I collated all comments about this topic in my OP and have quoted them there. The second post of this thread is my response to them.

As for your points, I will quote myself for the most part:

Escorts are the first type of military ship you can build. They are the smallest type of military ship, and are lightly armed.

Escorts can be used in early fleets, when no other types of military ship are available. But they are better suited to escorting civilian ships.

I also would argue that almost all of your assumption are based on the escort being the ONLY ship type present in a specific confrontation, that is a rather flawed assumption. I see no reason why speed is important if that means you rush 10-15% of your fleet to meet the enemy fleets alpha strike alone. In that case you would need to move them around the flanks and then use their distraction capabilities flanking the opponent... or if armed with PD they screen the main force and start intercepting missiles, torpedoes and fighters but withdraw before they enter into the enemy main weapon range and disperse.

Comparing them on their own make no sense, especially for the heavy escort that is not meant to operate on their own.

This seems like an entirely reasonable assumption to me. That’s their intended role, according to the Galactopedia.

The heavy escort have a very different role... their role is to distract the heavy strike force of a fleet from incoming fire. For this speed is not important, they are suppose to stay close to whatever ship they are escorting and using their countermeasures to blunt the enemy fire. At the same time they also can contribute to the fight with a reasonable amount of fire-power.

Fleet involvement is not their role, according to the Galactopedia.

Even if in a pinch, they must be used in a fleet, they would be used with Frigates and Destroyers. Speed is essential. They cannot perform their role if the core ships or close-escorts are faster than them (and basic frigates are faster, more durable and have more firepower than heavy escorts while additionally being intended to function as part of a fleet).

Survivability and DPS Combined: If you can afford 5 Heavy Escorts, you can save on ship cost by purchasing 6 Basic Escorts. 6 Basic Escorts will destroy a target in a little more time than 5 Heavy Escorts. However, it is less than 10% more time, so the Basic Escorts will not take 10% more damage. With their +20% to speed and manoeuvrability, they will get into range faster, so the whole battle (time to move within range plus time within range) takes less time overall.

You should not underestimate the value of numbers in DW as one small ships can quite easily distract a far bigger ship for a relatively long time. At the same time, over reliance on numbers can also leave you lacking in raw firepower and stamina. You need to find a balance that works, this balance will differ between factions.

I believe this paragraph did adequately address the "do not underestimate numbers" point you later made.

If escorts are not durable, then they will not distract a larger ship. 6 basic escorts are more durable than 5 heavy escorts – 6 basic escorts have 20% more shields and 20% more armour, plus 20% more targets for the larger ship to attack. Both types spend the same amount of time in the range of the larger ship.

The increase in DPS is marginal.
Sacrificing S&M for more countermeasures also influences outgoing DPS.
DPS is a function of weapon damage and time within range.
While in range, the outgoing DPS is 100% of its potential value.
While out of range, the outgoing DPS is 0% of its potential value.
Is 0% DPS or 100% DPS better?

The survivability (tankier) afforded by the countermeasures is trivial.
10% more countermeasures, according to you, reduces incoming DPS to 90% of its potential value.
Getting out of range reduces incoming DPS to 0% of its potential value.
Is a 10% reduction or a 100% reduction better?

When facing bases or anything with weapons longer-range than the escort, it is non-existent:
Heavy Escorts are 20% slower than Basic Escorts: they will spend 25% more time within range of an enemy, and so take 25% more damage.
Is a 10% reduction of 1.25 or a 0% reduction of 1 better?

I also question the importance of DPS on escort ships as an important metric at all. Small ships like this have far too little stamina to provide reliable DPS in most cases to begin with.

For a battle where the damage inflicted is the same, Heavy Escorts have greater DPS but spend more total time in combat. Basic Escorts have lower DPS and spend less total time in combat. The difference is the speed advantage. Because basic escorts have done the same amount of damage in less time (time to manoeuvre into range plus time in range), they do have a greater damage rate, even though their raw DPS is lower.

It was Erik who made firepower one of the performance criteria to judge the Heavy Escort on.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Well... what the Galactopedia say is not always what is best to be honest. There still are zero worth of sending ships to randomly patrol space, that is a huge waste of resources that is also why using that as a reference for how efficient some design is are flawed to begin with.

When I spoke of DPS being weak was in terms of defeating an enemy ship not as a supporting effort. This is also why the Heavy Frigate is more worthwhile (it also have more hull point, so will take more damage to destroy). The extra damage they can provide with the ship the escort actually can become significant. This is why the extra counter value will make this ship more worthwhile to build.

DPS is not important if your role is to distract, being small and nimble is the primary defence. The point is that you use a much cheaper ship to distract a much more expensive ship, that is the point. The damage the escort does in that scenario will be completely unimportant. You probably even want a PD weapon in the small mount to make the ship even more durable rather than doing damage.

[andybe]

Well... what the Galactopedia say is not always what is best to be honest. There still are zero worth of sending ships to randomly patrol space, that is a huge waste of resources that is also why using that as a reference for how efficient some design is are flawed to begin with.

When I spoke of DPS being weak was in terms of defeating an enemy ship not as a supporting effort. This is also why the Heavy Frigate is more worthwhile (it also have more hull point, so will take more damage to destroy). The extra damage they can provide with the ship the escort actually can become significant. This is why the extra counter value will make this ship more worthwhile to build.

DPS is not important if your role is to distract, being small and nimble is the primary defence. The point is that you use a much cheaper ship to distract a much more expensive ship, that is the point. The damage the escort does in that scenario will be completely unimportant. You probably even want a PD weapon in the small mount to make the ship even more durable rather than doing damage.

hmm, I daresay that if the galactopedia says something it should hold true. If it does not it is aching to be fixed down the line. Hence why I would agree with OP. What else would be the point of the galactopedia?

Whether or not patrolling actually has a point in the game or not is a separate topic. But I do believe it should become one. Maybe as another way to pick the pockets of the private sector. random events with small ships appearing to attack transporters similar to pirates. Acting as a general policing force reducing corruption throughout the empire etc... there certainly would be ways to make escorts relevant and fit in quite nicely lore-wise other than just being more military meat - but that is simply besides the point of this thread.

[StormingKiwi]

Well... what the Galactopedia say is not always what is best to be honest. There still are zero worth of sending ships to randomly patrol space, that is a huge waste of resources that is also why using that as a reference for how efficient some design is are flawed to begin with.

The documentation indicates how the game is designed to work, and my argument, made to the designer, is that the game does not work as designed.

I did not use Patrol missions as a reference for efficacy so I don't understand what you're referring to.

A discussion of the efficacy of missions belongs in its own thread.

Both of above points stated previously. Please read the quoted text here:

Where did I say anything about patrolling space being an effective use of a ship, a mission and resources? That's a separate topic for a separate thread.

When I spoke of DPS being weak was in terms of defeating an enemy ship not as a supporting effort. This is also why the Heavy Frigate is more worthwhile (it also have more hull point, so will take more damage to destroy).
2) The extra damage they can provide with the ship the escort actually can become significant. This is why the extra counter value will make this ship more worthwhile to build.

1) Your ships take hull damage last. Shields, then armor, then components and hull third. DPS rebutted previously.
2) rebutted in previous posts.

DPS is not important if your role is to distract, being small and nimble is the primary defence. The point is that you use a much cheaper ship to distract a much more expensive ship, that is the point. The damage the escort does in that scenario will be completely unimportant. You probably even want a PD weapon in the small mount to make the ship even more durable rather than doing damage.

Heavy escorts are not nimble. Longer range ships have more time to fire at them. As previously written.

[Jorgen_CAB]

Heavy escort don't need to be nimble and you don't want them to be faster or much faster than the ship they are protecting.

It often is worse to have the escort allot faster than the ship they escort as the ship will often run off and do stuff you don't want and they get killed or have to flee faster than they should.

I wonder if you actually tried to use any of these tactics in the game and understand how they work and make the sum of the part stronger as a whole as ships interact with each other.

This is why heavy escort is good... you want them to be slow and stay close to the ships they will protect, this is also where their additional fire-power will matter as they add to the fire-power of the ship they are escorting.

The point with the faster escort is distraction.

My whole point is that heavy escort is better at escorting other ships and patrol ship is better at distracting opposing larger ships on their own.

That is why you can't compare them.