The Rumble in the Tundra, a Vet (Sov) JB (Axis) rematch

[jasonbroomer]

T2 Axis AGN cont

We press on northwards from Riga with two motorised divisions, meeting with little resistance

T2 AGN EoT.png (3.16 MiB) Viewed 1219 times

and this rate we'll capture than Baltics quicker than Kanyne's presidential campaign. Once again, we refuel on route. Note the advanced SEC divisions, these are very small units (4-5,000 men) which leaves them very vulnerable but as divisions can flip a lot of hexes while consuming very little supply. Very useful.

Stronger elements of 4th Panzer headwards to Pskov, while some armour is held back resting.

AGC

Again the pocket is folded, leaving a little tidying up for T3.

T2 AGC main pocket folded and resting 2nd Pz as inf brought up.png (3.31 MiB) Viewed 1219 times

Heinrici is assigned to 2 Pz and brings up an as yet unused infantry divisions (his corps is placed on supply 4 and kept close to a new depot at BL on turn 1). Note that armour is rested, which brings double benefits. CPP is gained and fuel is saved (fuel consumption is doubled through newly captured terrain).

The main thrust is limited to taking the difficult ground north of Vitebsk

T2 AGC limited advance to take control of difficult ground.png (2.49 MiB) Viewed 1219 times

Elements of 2pz (in blue) secure the difficult ground west of the Land Bridge. I have learnt my lesson in my last game against Vet about venturing into the Land Bridge with limited numbers. I am expecting interdiction in this difficult ground, so generous amounts of AA SUs are deployed. That should be a nice welcome for the VVS if it flies here.

T2 AGC EoT Im expecting interdiction in this difficult ground .png (2.94 MiB) Viewed 1219 times

[jasonbroomer]

T2 AGS

The south has lots of interesting action in T2. I'm not massively surprised to see my semi Rovno pocket broken but I'm a little distressed to see it broken in the north and south.

T2 AGS SoT broken the only surprise is the northern arm, NB MPs.png (3.42 MiB) Viewed 1215 times

However, upon inspection the damage is minimal. My panzers around Proskurov were largely resupplied by air in the previous turn so have high MPs. Having to dig out troops from Tarnopol and Proskurov again will be a pain. As will the highlighted unit in the rough terrain at Zolochev. Irritatingly this will slow my FBD slightly. Serves me right for screwing up my opening here.

The first task is to secure the Galicia pocket. Air recon will study the route in detail

T2 AGS SoT this critical area areas abandoned.png (2.15 MiB) Viewed 1215 times

It appears vacant apart from the pre-made FZs which is nice. Can I be greedy and tie in those Soviet units to the east? I press on and immediately run into a series of units that my air recon didnt spot

T2 ACS Despite heavy air recon, this is the 5th unit discovered in this area.png (3.09 MiB) Viewed 1212 times

[jasonbroomer]

T2 AGS cont

I may still be able to increase the size of the Galicia pocket

T2 AGS a greedy plan.png (2.69 MiB) Viewed 1209 times

I press on popping a hasty into a Soviet ID, sadly, this division merely retreats into an even more irritating hex.

T2 AGS a greedy plan but I only get a retreat and combat delay.png (2.78 MiB) Viewed 1209 times

I hit it again, this time with the RFSS attached but it retreats again! I look for ways to seal the pocket until I eventually run into this tank division and I realise that I need to restrict my ambitions

T2 AGS a greedy plan even with the RFSS deployed the emergence of the tak division kills this plan.png (2.73 MiB) Viewed 1209 times

[jasonbroomer]

T2 AGS cont

So we tidy up what we do have, which isn't a bad haul and reseal the Rovno pocket. Rout routes were carefully managed to secure an additional 3 broken units in this new pocket.

T2 AGS EoT main action to tidy up pockets.png (2.56 MiB) Viewed 1208 times

While 1st Panzer has made a huge advance, it is not far away from supply hubs that now have been made available in Romania. It's new supply priority is worked around this calculation.

AGA is blessed with good MPs, so the Russian Southern Front exit routes are blocked off

T2 AGS EoT AGA ties up southern front.png (2.94 MiB) Viewed 1208 times

Whereas 6th Army with elements of 1st Panzer makes modest progress towards Kiev

T2 AGS EoT modest advance towards Kiev.png (3.79 MiB) Viewed 1208 times

There is no hurry here. 9th Army (dark blue) manage to pin a tank division in the marshes, a nice bonus. Note that rapidly moving cavalry and low supply units (the security, mountain and light divisions) are the best ones to be sent to the supply desert that is the Pripyat Marshes

[Veterin]

T2 Axis AGN

Bugger, for some reason my NP didn't fly to isolate Ventspils. This means that Soviets will be able to escape.

Unfortunately for me, i wasn't able to get any units out via Ventspils. Whilst it wasn't isolated when i first got the turn, during the Soviet air phase you had air that ran NP again and it was isolated again before it got to my ground phase. Seeing it un-isolated and not being able to move any units hurts

[Veterin]

T2 Soviet

1.png (39.65 KiB) Viewed 1126 times

Soviet pilots suiciding on mass at training grounds across the motherland

2.png (2.26 MiB) Viewed 1126 times

3.png (2.08 MiB) Viewed 1126 times

Flying plenty of interdiction missions through my air phase. Given Axis are advancing very quickly albeit on narrow paths, I want to make sure I remove admin movement for his units. I lost ~250 bombers with around 75% from air-to-air combat but I think it was worth it. By removing admin movement it adds extra pressure on supply, truck pool and slows down the speed of infantry units reaching the frontline.

[Veterin]

T2 Soviet Cont

4.png (778.97 KiB) Viewed 1125 times

Managed to break and isolate 1 small pocket. Looks like 2-3 panzer divisions in here. Given every unit only had to move 1 hex I was able to know exactly where to move prior to actually moving any units in the area.

5.png (1.2 MiB) Viewed 1125 times

In one of the many small Minsk pockets I tried to flip as many double rail hexes back to Soviet control. If he is repairing the Brest-Minsk direct rail then this would set his FBDs back next turn. Given he was regimenting on the western walls of this pocket its possible he’s repairing the double rails through Lida instead though.

6.png (437.22 KiB) Viewed 1125 times

Just had enough MPs to cross the river here which was awesome as it’s one of the starting airfields right on the border so likely Axis aircraft there. Turns out 10 German recon planes were there and they were all killed on the ground (must have been out of flying miles to escape). Would have preferred Fighters but any LW killed on the ground is always good.

[ShaggyHiK]

T2 Soviet
Flying plenty of interdiction missions through my air phase. Given Axis are advancing very quickly albeit on narrow paths, I want to make sure I remove admin movement for his units. I lost ~250 bombers with around 75% from air-to-air combat but I think it was worth it. By removing admin movement it adds extra pressure on supply, truck pool and slows down the speed of infantry units reaching the frontline.

I have to criticize you in the use of aviation, there is absolutely no point in doing so many raids to restrict movement.
The Soviet Union has no way to get at least a rating of 1 when using the interdict so that it would begin to contribute any result, it would be much more useful if they defeated the Airfield in Riga, the port and the Railyard, and also created a sea patrol in the sea hexes of Riga with rating 3+.

This would reduce the amount of cargo received in Riga and give you excellent prospects for the future. By reducing the possibilities of his tank forces in the north.

If he did not occupy Riga on the first turn, then you would have destroyed the Airfield strip in Riga for free and could strike at his aircraft in Riga in the future, which would also reduce your further losses.

The losses incurred for the interdict do not really give you anything and these are absolutely empty losses.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

T2 Soviet
Flying plenty of interdiction missions through my air phase. Given Axis are advancing very quickly albeit on narrow paths, I want to make sure I remove admin movement for his units. I lost ~250 bombers with around 75% from air-to-air combat but I think it was worth it. By removing admin movement it adds extra pressure on supply, truck pool and slows down the speed of infantry units reaching the frontline.

I have to criticize you in the use of aviation, there is absolutely no point in doing so many raids to restrict movement.
The Soviet Union has no way to get at least a rating of 1 when using the interdict so that it would begin to contribute any result, it would be much more useful if they defeated the Airfield in Riga, the port and the Railyard, and also created a sea patrol in the sea hexes of Riga with rating 3+.

This would reduce the amount of cargo received in Riga and give you excellent prospects for the future. By reducing the possibilities of his tank forces in the north.

If he did not occupy Riga on the first turn, then you would have destroyed the Airfield strip in Riga for free and could strike at his aircraft in Riga in the future, which would also reduce your further losses.

The losses incurred for the interdict do not really give you anything and these are absolutely empty losses.

I did NOT come to criticize but APPLAUD Veterin's use of the airforce. With roughly only 250 bombers loss for the "EXTENT" of interdiction this is FREAKING AWESOME. It is 100% worth it and do not listen to others that have not seen the light. Good luck Vet, and of course Jason too

[HardLuckYetAgain]

This interdiction is godly

Interdiction.png (1.02 MiB) Viewed 1081 times

[ShaggyHiK]

This interdiction is godly

Why spend planes on an interdict when you can spend planes on:


At the same time, my aircraft losses are only ~150 higher. At the same time, only about 220 of them are bombers.

I apologize for turning the topic from tracking the AAR into a discussion of opportunities, I can’t keep silent, I want to brag.

[M60A3TTS]

Here is some analysis, others can decide how effective this was.

I've cleaned up the map and overlaid where interdiction went down and where Axis units are present is the letter U.



Where the hexes are clear is where interdiction is generally least effective when it comes to impacting movement. Forests and swamps make interdiction more effective and impede movement.

It appears the Axis units have a relatively straightforward path through clear hexes which I'd expect them to follow until coming out at the town of Viljandi.

On one hex towards the southern end of the interdiction I put a star which looks to be the most attractive target because the other three paths include two through swamps and one requiring the Axis to cross two rivers and through two other interdicted forest tiles.

Regarding the impact on supply, a conversation with Joel long ago led me to believe results are rather paltry which didn't make much sense, but that's what was conveyed. Maybe that has since changed, but not that I'm aware of.

It would be helpful to know how many aircraft are being required on these missions, plus number of days flying. The default of 24 per strike is not too impressive.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Here is some analysis, others can decide how effective this was.

I've cleaned up the map and overlaid where interdiction went down and where Axis units are present is the letter U.



Where the hexes are clear is where interdiction is generally least effective when it comes to impacting movement. Forests and swamps make interdiction more effective and impede movement.

It appears the Axis units have a relatively straightforward path through clear hexes which I'd expect them to follow until coming out at the town of Viljandi.

On one hex towards the southern end of the interdiction I put a star which looks to be the most attractive target because the other three paths include two through swamps and one requiring the Axis to cross two rivers and through two other interdicted forest tiles.

Regarding the impact on supply, a conversation with Joel long ago led me to believe results are rather paltry which didn't make much sense, but that's what was conveyed. Maybe that has since changed, but not that I'm aware of.

For the amount of interdiction laid down in the multiple areas is "godly". As for being worth it, It is worth it "IF" going after Motorized units.

inerdiction.png (401.14 KiB) Viewed 1009 times

Now what comes into question is what is Vet trying to do? If trying to interdict infantry then the interdiction is a pipe dream. I personally only use interdiction to inhibit Motorized units.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Also remember there are other benefits of interdiction & K62 would love to tell people about them . Right K62?

[K62]

Also remember there are other benefits of interdiction & K62 would love to tell people about them . Right K62?

In my tests that I conducted several versions ago interdiction killed a very decent amount of trucks travelling through the interdicted hexes. I think there is also a bit of extra fatigue and, in some cases, units attacking out of an interdicted hex will suffer disrupted elements in combat. The effects are not huge but, if the Soviets manage to lay it down consistently, it will definitely add up throughout the campaign.

[M60A3TTS]

Here is some analysis, others can decide how effective this was.

I've cleaned up the map and overlaid where interdiction went down and where Axis units are present is the letter U.



Where the hexes are clear is where interdiction is generally least effective when it comes to impacting movement. Forests and swamps make interdiction more effective and impede movement.

It appears the Axis units have a relatively straightforward path through clear hexes which I'd expect them to follow until coming out at the town of Viljandi.

On one hex towards the southern end of the interdiction I put a star which looks to be the most attractive target because the other three paths include two through swamps and one requiring the Axis to cross two rivers and through two other interdicted forest tiles.

Regarding the impact on supply, a conversation with Joel long ago led me to believe results are rather paltry which didn't make much sense, but that's what was conveyed. Maybe that has since changed, but not that I'm aware of.

For the amount of interdiction laid down in the multiple areas is "godly". As for being worth it, It is worth it "IF" going after Motorized units.

inerdiction.png

Now what comes into question is what is Vet trying to do? If trying to interdict infantry then the interdiction is a pipe dream. I personally only use interdiction to inhibit Motorized units.

That is a very good point. IIRC, that interdiction table of 1-9 is actually the on-map interdiction level 10-99. You need the icon of a circle with a value of 1 in the interdicted hex which represents interdiction level 10-19 in order for the lowest level to kick in. In the original image, all of the interdicted hexes have a red star, meaning the interdiction levels in this case are all 9 and below, again corresponding to <1.0 on that table.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Also remember there are other benefits of interdiction & K62 would love to tell people about them . Right K62?

In my tests that I conducted several versions ago interdiction killed a very decent amount of trucks travelling through the interdicted hexes. I think there is also a bit of extra fatigue and, in some cases, units attacking out of an interdicted hex will suffer disrupted elements in combat. The effects are not huge but, if the Soviets manage to lay it down consistently, it will definitely add up throughout the campaign.

Thank you for sharing in Jason & Vet's AAR

[HardLuckYetAgain]

Here is some analysis, others can decide how effective this was.

I've cleaned up the map and overlaid where interdiction went down and where Axis units are present is the letter U.



Where the hexes are clear is where interdiction is generally least effective when it comes to impacting movement. Forests and swamps make interdiction more effective and impede movement.

It appears the Axis units have a relatively straightforward path through clear hexes which I'd expect them to follow until coming out at the town of Viljandi.

On one hex towards the southern end of the interdiction I put a star which looks to be the most attractive target because the other three paths include two through swamps and one requiring the Axis to cross two rivers and through two other interdicted forest tiles.

Regarding the impact on supply, a conversation with Joel long ago led me to believe results are rather paltry which didn't make much sense, but that's what was conveyed. Maybe that has since changed, but not that I'm aware of.

For the amount of interdiction laid down in the multiple areas is "godly". As for being worth it, It is worth it "IF" going after Motorized units.

inerdiction.png

Now what comes into question is what is Vet trying to do? If trying to interdict infantry then the interdiction is a pipe dream. I personally only use interdiction to inhibit Motorized units.

That is a very good point. IIRC, that interdiction table of 1-9 is actually the on-map interdiction level 10-99. You need the icon of a circle with a value of 1 in the interdicted hex which represents interdiction level 10-19 in order for the lowest level to kick in. In the original image, all of the interdicted hexes have a red star, meaning the interdiction levels in this case are all 9 and below, again corresponding to <1.0 on that table.

Huh? Is not a 2 interdiction on map a 2 on the table meaning +1 mp to motorized and "NA" to foot? So on and so forth on the table?

inerdiction.png (401.14 KiB) Viewed 969 times

[ShaggyHiK]

I conclude that everyone who has unsubscribed here on the topic of aviation does not understand anything about the use of aviation.

Everything rests on the following 2 screenshots:

You do not need to worry about losses if your planes have nothing to shoot down.
You can also do anything as long as your planes don't get shot down.

[Veterin]

I have to criticize you in the use of aviation, there is absolutely no point in doing so many raids to restrict movement.
The Soviet Union has no way to get at least a rating of 1 when using the interdict so that it would begin to contribute any result, it would be much more useful if they defeated the Airfield in Riga, the port and the Railyard, and also created a sea patrol in the sea hexes of Riga with rating 3+.

Not quite sure you understand how interdiction works. You don't need to get it to (1) on map to get a lot of the benefit from it.

I conclude that everyone who has unsubscribed here on the topic of aviation does not understand anything about the use of aviation.

Everything rests on the following 2 screenshots:

You do not need to worry about losses if your planes have nothing to shoot down.
You can also do anything as long as your planes don't get shot down.

In the majority of games airfield bombing is house ruled out as it should be.... (other than t1 axis of course).