Construction Battalions in Fortified Zones with Huge Defense Values

[goldenlion]

I am finding huge defense values of Position Construction Battalions attached to some Fortified Zones.
(Only 27 rifle squads, 27 labor squads (hiwis), and 57 support (hiwi)

For a shown CV of 63

[Veterin]

In cities, the def value of units are greatly multiplied. Defensive CV is generally overstated in cities as if through combat, one side has a numerical advantage so many units will be disrupted that the ending CV is low. For example, that fortified unit in the city (assuming no other units were in) is a lot easier to capture than trying to capture a position with 63 def CV outside a city (as the number of units to achieve that is much greater)

[goldenlion]

Thank you for contributing! Much appreciated.

I get the CV inflation in city/urban settings - my point though is that these are hugely inflated defensive CV numbers, from just a few construction battalions.

Compare it to this other example:
The fortified zone with three construction battalions has a CV of 57.
The entire 18th motorized division that is in the same city (with TOE of 85, and CPP of 60-something) has only a CV of 14.

[FortTell]

Compare it to this other example:
The fortified zone with three construction battalions has a CV of 57.
The entire 18th motorized division that is in the same city (with TOE of 85, and CPP of 60-something) has only a CV of 14.

Because fort units cannot attack, they technically have no offensive CV. But showing 0 offensive CV would be misleading as it would look like the FZ is depleted or otherwise not combat-worthy. So they show the defensive CV (inflated by city bonuses) in place of the offensive one. The motorized division has an offensive CV (uninflated by city terrain, because terrain increases only your defensive CV) and shows it on the overview. If you would look at the motodiv's unit card, you would see its defensive CV (and it will be larger than 57)

[goldenlion]

Compare it to this other example:
The fortified zone with three construction battalions has a CV of 57.
The entire 18th motorized division that is in the same city (with TOE of 85, and CPP of 60-something) has only a CV of 14.

Because fort units cannot attack, they technically have no offensive CV. But showing 0 offensive CV would be misleading as it would look like the FZ is depleted or otherwise not combat-worthy. So they show the defensive CV (inflated by city bonuses) in place of the offensive one. The motorized division has an offensive CV (uninflated by city terrain, because terrain increases only your defensive CV) and shows it on the overview. If you would look at the motodiv's unit card, you would see its defensive CV (and it will be larger than 57)

Thanks also for your input, FortTell.
You are right, the apples to apples comparison is defensive CV to defensive CV, which for this Mot Div is 805.1 (I don't think the picture has adequate resolution for you to see).

Can I, then, circle back and transition to the question of why the defensive CV's in city/urban hexes are so over-inflated? (So as to produce values like 805.1 for a single division?)
I certainly get the idea that the terrain is conducive to intense short-range combat beneficial to dug-in defenders, but if it is not "truly" a CV of 805.1:

1) What is the purpose in making the CV appear that high? (Are the game mechanics trying to model something deeper or something else entirely, and these "over"-inflated numbers are just a by-product of that?)

2) Or is the defensive CV actually that high? (And in other words, that single division would be logistically impossible to overtake without prior fort level reduction by enemy engineers and arty?)

(And this is just out of curiosity at this point - if these are truly the intended values being shown - because I think this team has done a superb job of modeling so many factors surrounding the combat, making all this stuff so immersive )

[Wiedrock]

CV in housing areas gets boosted/lowered by

• 1.Terrain [boosted]
• 2.density ("Dense")
  1. AFVs get lower CV in "Dense" Hexes [lowered]
  2. INF get higher CV in "Dense" Hexes [boosted]
  3. ART and others .....don't get affected [or...no idea]
  3.Fortification [boosted]
  4. I am not sure about City Garrison/Fortified Zone-benefits.

Since all this things are multipliers the numbers grow fast.

1) What is the purpose in making the CV appear that high? (Are the game mechanics trying to model something deeper or something else entirely, and these "over"-inflated numbers are just a by-product of that?)

Remember that CV is not about the fight itself, it's about IF the fight happens at all and how it ends. Historically and in the present attacking/capturing a housing area is the worst thing a Army can try to do without/before encircling the area, I guess that's what's supposed to be represented with that high CV values.

2) Or is the defensive CV actually that high? (And in other words, that single division would be logistically impossible to overtake without prior fort level reduction by enemy engineers and arty?)

Let's say you have 100 Rambos with a base CV of 1 each. So you have 100CV.
Now apply this to your example.
If you put them into Gorky [Urban/Dense 2] you get them to 100CVx4(Urban)x4(Dense 2)=1600CV, now further applying Fortification,....lets say x4 (so Fort level 3) you get 6400CV.

Having such high CV makes the attecker think twice, but if they attack then the defender CV may drop quickly, since knocking out 1 guy reduces the CV by 64CV and not by 1CV as it would on normal/clear terrain without fort and other stuff.
Same goes for the Fortification, reducingthis by 1 level reduces the overall CV by 25%, so by 1600CV.

....there are lot's more statements roaming around, like "in urban areas casualties are higher" and "at the end of a city fight the post battle defenders CV gets multiplied by [?]" ...


You can also see this thread for more math.

[goldenlion]

Remember that CV is not about the fight itself, it's about IF the fight happens at all and how it ends. Historically and in the present attacking/capturing a housing area is the worst thing a Army can try to do without/before encircling the area, I guess that's what's supposed to be represented with that high CV values.

Let's say you have 100 Rambos with a base CV of 1 each. So you have 100CV.
Now apply this to your example.
If you put them into Gorky [Urban/Dense 2] you get them to 100CVx4(Urban)x4(Dense 2)=1600CV, now further applying Fortification,....lets say x4 (so Fort level 3) you get 6400CV.

Having such high CV makes the attecker think twice, but if they attack then the defender CV may drop quickly, since knocking out 1 guy reduces the CV by 64CV and not by 1CV as it would on normal/clear terrain without fort and other stuff.
Same goes for the Fortification, reducingthis by 1 level reduces the overall CV by 25%, so by 1600CV.

Great reminder/explanation, thank you sir!

[goldenlion]

I'm re-kindling this original topic because something I'm still not getting.

Ive got a fortified zone here with a large defensive CV value of 102 displayed.



One of the attached units is the 127th pioneer brigade there.
If I click on it, that unit has a defensive CV value of 117.



Why is the total defensive CV value of the aggregate fortified zone less than that of one of its attached units?

[FortTell]

Why is the total defensive CV value of the aggregate fortified zone less than that of one of its attached units?

Because the so-called "aggregate" CV is shown only on map, if you go to the unit's card, you will get the stats (including CV and men count) for that unit only.

[goldenlion]

Why is the total defensive CV value of the aggregate fortified zone less than that of one of its attached units?

Because the so-called "aggregate" CV is shown only on map, if you go to the unit's card, you will get the stats (including CV and men count) for that unit only.

Hi FortTell thanks for responding.
I'm still confused - let me expand the question, because if I understand the response right, what I'm saying I'm seeing is puzzling because of exactly that.

So there is a 10th Fortified Zone unit, with three support units attached (914th Mixed Artillery Battalion, 667th Heavy Panzerjaeger Battalion, and 127th Pioneer Brigade).

The Fortified Zone counter is displaying its total defensive CV as 102.

It's three attached support units:
1) 914th Mixed Artillery Battalion - defensive CV is 5
2) 667th Heavy Panzerjaeger Battalion - defensive CV is 15
3) 127th Pioneer Brigade - defensive CV is 117

My question is, shouldn't the Fortified Zone defensive CV be (at least) 5+15+117 = 137 or higher?

[Joel Billings]

There are some strange things going on with the displayed CV values for the city forts (clearly not consistent in how it's being displayed). I would trust the values shown in the rollover as it shows each of the support units and the parent unit CVs separately.