Norway is Conquered in September 1939

[canuckgamer]

A friend of mine who has been playing the Axis has figured out how to conquer Norway on the 3rd turn of the game, September 29, 1939. He invades Denmark on turn 1 and conquers it on turn 2. He moves pretty well all the air units from the Polish front except for the bomber furthest east toward Denmark so that at the beginning of turn 3 they are all in range of Oslo. He can still conquer Poland in 2 turns without the air although but to me it doesn't matter if it takes 3 turns.
On turn 3 he ground strikes the units in Oslo at least 9 times and saves one OP for a Stuka for ground support. In addition he moves naval units adjacent to Oslo to conduct naval bombardment in support of the one invading division. Also has divisions in ports so they can immediately transport to the remaining ports in Norway including Narvik. This has worked for him the last 2 games. He tested it using hot seat and it worked 12 out of 12 times. This provides the Germans with iron ore immediately including the blizzard turns of 39/40.
Did the Germans have the resources historically to conquer Norway in September 1939 before the weather hit? I doubt it so maybe the 10 landing craft they start the game with should be removed. I have considered moving subs and naval units within interception range of Oslo but with that many German air the UK could lose some naval units.

[AlvaroSousa]

There are 2 options.

Either the English have some LCs to counter. After they are conquered they land in Narvik
or the Germans get theirs in the queue for 1940.

[sveint]

Just activate Norway if Denmark is attacked , this would be historical.

The Norwegian government thought it be like WW1, and the war would "stay down in Europe". Attacking Denmark would cause an immediate mobilization.

[sveint]

At the same time, if we could just remove the Danish ground forces. They resisted for all of 2 hours and posed no threat or delay to German forces.

Also, I'd make Norwegian ground forces even weaker. They were very poorly trained and completely unprepared for war.

[canuckgamer]

In my opinion the Germans couldn't have conducted an invasion of Norway while they were still in the process of conquering Poland which took about 5 weeks. Historically they were not able to do this until April 40. I think the best option is to put the 10 landing craft in the queue.

This also provides the UK time to build their own landing craft for an invasion of as an example, Narvik if the Germans were to take it in the spring of 1940.

[stjeand]

FYI the attack on Norway can fail...I have done it dozens of a times and there have been a handful of failures. IF there is a failure then it is likely Germany will fail to take Norway unless they call in armor and a half dozen corps.
AND even then Narvick is near impossible for the Axis to capture.

Sorry if I am Allied IF Germany does not take Norway in one turn they are in trouble.

Narvick is a huge issue overall in that regard...though not really sure how to handle that with just saying the Allies can go there OR requiring landing craft.



So yes...IF Denmark is attacked then Norway could / should join...OR just take the LCs away for a month...then landing in Norway can't really happen until 1940.

[AlvaroSousa]

I wonder if I should remove that front all together..... Like 4 hexes north of Helsinki

[canuckgamer]

Stejand, as mentioned my friend tested hot seat before trying it in our pbem games because if it fails then the UK can transport a unit in to Narvik and other ports. The following turn, #4 the weather hits. It would then be a serious commitment for the Germans to try and take Narvik and that couldn't happen until spring 1940 at which time he is in to the invasion of the lowlands and France.
I am going to ask my friend if he documented the moves and attacks he made in his play tests and will provide them to you by PM for you to test.

[CHINCHIN]

I wonder if I should remove that front all together..... Like 4 hexes north of Helsinki

Instead of eliminating it, I would ponteciaria. It cost Germany a lot of resources and troops to take Norway, it lost 2 or 3 cruisers, 10 destroyers, several submarines, and many planes... And the UK lost 1 aircraft carrier, and 10 or 12 destroyers and cruisers, submarines, planes... The Losses in ground troops were not significant, but in planes and ships. It is true that after this operation there was never more fighting in Norway. But it forces the axis to defend it, and the UK always has the option of releasing it. They are also important bases to attack the Arctic convoy route with aviation and marine.

Germany embarked its ground troops on destroyers and invaded all ports at the same time to prevent a quick response from the UK and France. He used paratroopers to take the airfields, and a large part of his navy and air force, the coastal batteries of the Oslo fjord prevented the landing, and it was airborne troops that took Oslo, also despite losing Oslo the Norwegians continued fighting, and the entire operation lasted almost 2 months, 4 game turns.

The key is how to simulate all this with the limitations of the game.

It occurs to me:
-In Oslo put a body 20/20 or 15/20
-Narvik leave it empty, or a division 1/10
-Queue 30 German landing craft

This would force Germany to attack Oslo with a 20/20 invading body, paratroopers, aviation and navy. And invade Narvik with a division.

[sveint]

Just a minor correction. Oslo was not taken by paratroopers, the Germans flew in troops against no opposition. If you want that to be historical, Oslo needs to be undefended. Of course, you'd have to make Norway not surrender after only taking Norway.

[stjeand]

Stejand, as mentioned my friend tested hot seat before trying it in our pbem games because if it fails then the UK can transport a unit in to Narvik and other ports. The following turn, #4 the weather hits. It would then be a serious commitment for the Germans to try and take Narvik and that couldn't happen until spring 1940 at which time he is in to the invasion of the lowlands and France.
I am going to ask my friend if he documented the moves and attacks he made in his play tests and will provide them to you by PM for you to test.

As stated I am able to take Norway on Turn 3...the steps are pretty easy.

Turn 1 set up to take Denmark on Turn 2. IF you fail at that Norway will not fall. Move all bombing air units VERY close to the Denmark border.
Turn 2 Move a division into a port within invasion range of Oslo. Make Denmark surrender. Move extra divisions around in Denmark to capture area for air units. MOVE all air units within bombing range of Oslo starting with the Ground support bombers then the Tac as they have a longer range and even a fighter or two IF you have one.
Turn 3 If you have supply truck, which I can't remember, supply the division that will invade. Amphibiously invade a hex next to Oslo. BOMB the Norway unit into the stone age, Ground support first to attempt to damage the unit then every other unit in range OTHER than a single Ground Support unit, set to support the attack from the infantry division. Use a SUB to give supply to the division attacking Oslo. Move the German fleet to support it in Raider mode of course. Attack Oslo. There is an 80 to 90% chance the unit will retreat. If so you take Oslo.
IF it fails...Germany is in deep trouble.
Norway can then rail in a new defensive unit and merge with the unit there to be a small corps. PUT it on hold.
Now move UK units into Norway and GET one to Narvik ASAP.

AS the UK I have never lost Narvik once I have it. I put to full corps there and one will have anti tank. Also move in navy.
The Germans can only keep one air unit in range to bomb unless they build airfields. NOW if they do that and put a bunch up there and use multiple air units PERHAPS they could take it but they are have to attack France...need all their air. They have to attack Russia and need all their air.
So they lose 200+ PP per year which to be honest is pretty bad. That is two armor corps over the life of Norway.


PERHAPS a fix to the situation would be as follows.

Turn 1, 2 and 3 the unit in Oslo is a small corp. ON turn 4 it turns into a division.
Narvik is converted to a port size 1, which can basically only supply 1 large corps, all others are in basic and will not recover efficiency. That will wear them down. BUT one large corp there does create a huge problem overall. Even basic supply can keep Narvik from falling for a year or 2 or more without a major German force of 3 to 5 full corps being sent there.
Honestly the only way to make it work would be to have Narvik NOT be a supply source for the Allies if Norway surrenders. Then units there will slowly perish and it will require major resources to keep them supplied. Which honestly would be more realistic. The UK could not safely keep units in Narvik supplied once Germany owned the airspace.

Just some thoughts.

[AlvaroSousa]

These are all complicated solutions that are trying to balance history for something the Germans did and got away with.

In the ETO and WIF games I played the Axis never invade Norway. If they do the Allies are prepared. if the Allies invade it they give Germany troops, ships, and lots of convoys denying them to themselves.

Should have Hitler invaded Norway? Was it a smart move? It was a lucky move.

What would have happened if the UK had continued mining convoy lanes in Norwegian waters?

This is a tough solution to figure out.

I think possibly the best solution is that I put a US entry script in the game. If Norway is Allied in 1939 the US gains. If it is Allied the US loses. This keeps both sides reluctant to invade it as the US extra PP will outweigh the Norway PPs but still give the option to the Germans.

It also keeps in line with the game philosophy of reward and consequence.

[canuckgamer]

Stejand, that is pretty well what my friend does to take Norway on turn 3. On the first turn he declares war on Denmark and moves the 4-5 from Hamburg to hex 154,68. Then he rails the 11-5 from the western front to hex 154,67. In turn 2 the 11-5 can move adjacent to Copenhagen and destroy the defending unit. The 4-5 from 154,68 then moves in to Copenhagen. On turn 1 he transfers every plane except the furthest east bomber toward Denmark so they are position to ground strike while leaving 1 op for a Stuka to provide ground support.

I am wondering if anyone has tried to counter this by moving UK naval units including the one sub within interception range of hex 155,75 on turn 2? I considered it but with 2 stukas and 3 bombers in range I suspect the UK are going to lose some ships so is it worth it? Oddly enough, hex 155,75 is not even a beach hex but forest.

If the weather is rain at Oslo, the invasion could fail.

[generalfdog]

as allies on turn 1 move some French corps to ports so they can land in Danish ports that should slow them down

[canuckgamer]

Doing hot seat testing of whether UK/French naval units can position themselves to intercept the German infantry invading the hex just south of Oslo. When I placed surface ships within 5 hexes they did intercept inflicting casualties on the German division. However the UK lost the Ark Royal to German land based air.

I then tried another test where I moved a UK sub to hex 151,72 which is five hexes from the invasion hex. It didn't even try an interception. I don't know why it didn't.

[Nirosi]

I honestly do not think that this is a problem.

There is not that much to gain to take Norway in 1939 rather than 1940, but there is still a reasonable chance it will fail (20-25% maybe). And if it does fail, then Germany is in trouble as it will probably never again get the 25 PPs from Sweden during Winter turns. So it is a huge gamble with little to gain and so much to lose.

I personally would never try it as the Axis (I'm too chicken).

And as the Allies, I do not care that much if Norway falls in late 39 or early 40 (small annoyance because of U-boats). My biggest fear would actually be that the Axis tries and... fails, as some players might actually just give up the game (even tough they can still win the game of course, some might not like the handicap from start).

[ncc1701e]

It cost Germany a lot of resources and troops to take Norway, it lost 2 or 3 cruisers, 10 destroyers, several submarines, and many planes... And the UK lost 1 aircraft carrier, and 10 or 12 destroyers and cruisers, submarines, planes... The Losses in ground troops were not significant, but in planes and ships. It is true that after this operation there was never more fighting in Norway. But it forces the axis to defend it, and the UK always has the option of releasing it. They are also important bases to attack the Arctic convoy route with aviation and marine.

Germany embarked its ground troops on destroyers and invaded all ports at the same time to prevent a quick response from the UK and France. He used paratroopers to take the airfields, and a large part of his navy and air force, the coastal batteries of the Oslo fjord prevented the landing, and it was airborne troops that took Oslo, also despite losing Oslo the Norwegians continued fighting, and the entire operation lasted almost 2 months, 4 game turns.

The key is how to simulate all this with the limitations of the game.

The main problem is the naval/air simulation imo to reach something quite historical. The German planes did play a key role to chase and destroy any willigness by the Royal Navy to come close from the Norway coastlines.

In the game, I told this already many times but the naval air damage are not strong enough.

Plus, the two operation points limit for the navy. I think a good simulation will be achieve in WP2.

[ncc1701e]

I honestly do not think that this is a problem.

There is not that much to gain to take Norway in 1939 rather than 1940, but there is still a reasonable chance it will fail (20-25% maybe)...

Just checking this, without conquering Norway, the German player will have 3 strategic points.

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Without Norway 1.JPG (217.37 KiB) Viewed 822 times

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Without Norway 2.JPG (107 KiB) Viewed 822 times

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Without Norway 3.JPG (249.04 KiB) Viewed 822 times

[ncc1701e]

By conquering Norway, the German player will have 4 strategic points.

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With Norway 1.JPG (343.99 KiB) Viewed 819 times

[ncc1701e]

But, playing hotseat until May 10th, 1940 just to see the difference, honestly it does not matter for production.
This is 4360 PP, without Norway, vs 4384 PP with.

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Without Norway 4.JPG (149.37 KiB) Viewed 820 times

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With Norway 2.JPG (147.84 KiB) Viewed 820 times