The Elephant in the Room: Yes, the Counters...

[Staufenberg44]

Long time military history researcher, scenario designer and Ostfrontnik, now in my 70s and less-inclined to be quiet about obvious mistakes.

I'll be blunt here: how on earth was this game redone, spreadsheet and game dynamics-wise, and marketed for over $100, with counters still looking like you are back in the days of yore playing Avalon Hill? when Germans were ash-gray confederates, and the Italians yellow etc., with clumsy numeric values pasted below clearly dated NATO symbols... and that's it folks. Rather like being sold a car that has this amazing super-charged Mercedes motor, a technical marvel... oh, and yeah it is still in the original Trabant body. 'Hey, you see we are retro freaks and it's cool in it's own way right? Let's talk more about the superb motor in this...'

Nope, it's a glaring faux pas, and one that has so far kept me from purchasing what is otherwise clearly an intensely researched piece of work involving massive amounts of design and playtest hours. The counters are frankly completely unacceptable as is. All the other elements I have looked at are a spreadsheet-freak wet-dream of incorporated detail and hats off for that. I love chrome. But I also love the visuals as with any grognard. It's in our DNA. The counters are an epic fail, I really could not believe my eyes when I first looked at it.

I note there are a few mods out there, but rather than obliging potential buyers having to dig around why not fix it with a patch to make these counters exists in 2023 and not 1980, at least as an option? Unit IDs as well, divisional insignia, there's lots of room on a counter tile to put a ton of info and not just settle for a default "classic boardgame look" from last century, not to mention some very skewed NATO symbol choices. If there is some killer mod out there to address these issues I would like to look at it.

This surface flaw has me wondering what else is wrong under the hood if the designers are so tone-deaf on this obvious issue, and I have yet to purchase it as a result. They have to know this appearance issue will be turning off many potential grognard buyers. Like myself.

Constructive criticism, eh?

-Stauf
P.S. My own design opus on this some might remember back then was Drang nach Osten (TOAW).

[Zovs]

Long time military history researcher, scenario designer and Ostfrontnik, now in my 70s and less-inclined to be quiet about obvious mistakes.

I'll be blunt here: how on earth was this game redone, spreadsheet and game dynamics-wise, and marketed for over $100, with counters still looking like you are back in the days of yore playing Avalon Hill? when Germans were ash-gray confederates, and the Italians yellow etc., with clumsy numeric values pasted below clearly dated NATO symbols... and that's it folks. Rather like being sold a car that has this amazing super-charged Mercedes motor, a technical marvel... oh, and yeah it is still in the original Trabant body. 'Hey, you see we are retro freaks and it's cool in it's own way right? Let's talk more about the superb motor in this...'

Nope, it's a glaring faux pas, and one that has so far kept me from purchasing what is otherwise clearly an intensely researched piece of work involving massive amounts of design and playtest hours. The counters are frankly completely unacceptable as is. All the other elements I have looked at are a spreadsheet-freak wet-dream of incorporated detail and hats off for that. I love chrome. But I also love the visuals as with any grognard. It's in our DNA. The counters are an epic fail, I really could not believe my eyes when I first looked at it.

I note there are a few mods out there, but rather than obliging potential buyers having to dig around why not fix it with a patch to make these counters exists in 2023 and not 1980, at least as an option? Unit IDs as well, divisional insignia, there's lots of room on a counter tile to put a ton of info and not just settle for a default "classic boardgame look" from last century, not to mention some very skewed NATO symbol choices. If there is some killer mod out there to address these issues I would like to look at it.

This surface flaw has me wondering what else is wrong under the hood if the designers are so tone-deaf on this obvious issue, and I have yet to purchase it as a result. They have to know this appearance issue will be turning off many potential grognard buyers. Like myself.

Constructive criticism, eh?

-Stauf
P.S. My own design opus on this some might remember back then was Drang nach Osten (TOAW).

Sorry completely disagree with your opinion on the counters. I love the default NATO symbols and the counters are just fine. I have been playing wargames since 1977 and the counters are just fine thank you.

[homer82]

This 1975ish style counter is one thing that drew me to the game. I wouldn't change it in my game play but options are seldom a bad thing.

[Staufenberg44]

Ok thanks for that, it's all just visuals in any case. I suppose it's my own issue here, one that I am attempting to get over as I would very much like to delve into this. I'll wait to see if anyone else agrees with me on this.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

$25.00 game from SPI, AH, and others back in Jan 1980 would be equivalent of buying a $97.48 game last month. Just saying....

inflation.png (150.65 KiB) Viewed 1787 times

Plus I don't have to have tweezers, non-shaking hands, and a magnifying glass to look at things. Not mentioning having to pick up those counters off the floor if a cat or dog hit the table. I don't care if the counters are puke black and white with red polka dots. But that is just me.

PS. The counters are the same color as Fire and the East and Scorched Earth had when GDW had the Series. Seems pretty historical color from the game to me".

[goranw]

I like the old style counters. Old board game player.
But mods are always interesting.
The problem here is instead that you cant on the map
directly see the underlying counter(s) unit identification
or individual strenght. I guess this is possible to change.
Goran

[Ginella1946]

Why not ?
have a look on the counters of Decisive campaigns Ardennes offensive !
i like to play this game whith the pleasant counters,
could those graphic be realised to WITE 2 ?

[Zovs]

Why not ?
have a look on the counters of Decisive campaigns Ardennes offensive !
i like to play this game whith the pleasant counters,
could those graphic be realised to WITE 2 ?

I had a quick look at some AARs for DC AO and the simple answer is no. I doubt 2by3 will re-code the counters to have all that information on the counters when they don't need it. All those details are in the unit when you click on the unit, you don't need to see all that extra stuff on the counter. All you really need it is the unit type, color and combat/movement values. The rest you get when you click on the unit.

[Zovs]

This is the DC AO counters I think he is referring to.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/down ... id=1142679

To me that is just horrid! It tells me nothing and just looks like a lot of confusion, plus the hexes look totally weird and not drawn correctly.

[Zovs]

To me these make more sense and are very pleasing to the eyes.



And:



Etc.:



And so on:

[Der Kuenstler]

To me the current counters are simple, easily readable and comfortingly familiar. You can easily drill down for more detail with one click.

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” — Leonardo da Vinci.

[PeteJC]

I too am a veteran gamer and have been gaming since the 70s and I disagree with your comments on the counters but that does not matter. We all like what we like and dislike what we dislike. What I can tell you is that it is a shame for you to be missing out on playing what can only be considered the best game at an operational/strategic level simulating the eastern front there is or has been. I certainly know of no other Eastern Front game that can hold a candle to this one. Do not let your distaste for the counters get in the way of you enjoying this masterpiece. It is not perfect but well worth the price and IMHO the considerable effort to play.

[Staufenberg44]

I too am a veteran gamer and have been gaming since the 70s and I disagree with your comments on the counters but that does not matter. We all like what we like and dislike what we dislike. What I can tell you is that it is a shame for you to be missing out on playing what can only be considered the best game at an operational/strategic level simulating the eastern front there is or has been. I certainly know of no other Eastern Front game that can hold a candle to this one. Do not let your distaste for the counters get in the way of you enjoying this masterpiece. It is not perfect but well worth the price and IMHO the considerable effort to play.

Oh I know it's a matter of time before I finally get it. I just needed to vent on that issue first.

[EwaldvonKleist]

I respectfully disagree OP. The counters contain the necessary information: Unit size, unit type, combat value O/D or MPs instead of Def. CV. plus colour codes for soft factors and a small marking if the unit has moved yet.
Everything else would be clutter, especially such things as unit logos. I know some games do this but it is a distraction and reduces readibility.
The only change I would support is an option to show Of CV, Def CV, MP on the counter at the same time.

[Cavalry Corp]

Guys the counters IMO are ok what is missing and needs updating is the symbols.

Mot units should all have wheels (the Divs do but nothing else?) and when a unit goes Mot the symbol should change to Mot in symbol surely. It is a very important thing easily overlooked esp. on Art, Flak guns and Temp Mot units like Engineers and Inf Regts etc.

Pictures say 1000 word more than the manual or text boxes which are already too abbreviated and also need a tidy up to put in the full words if there is space - its drives me crazy guessing the abbreviations.

A lot more could be added to the game in using the full range of symbols - and they look cool too.

But broadly other wise its ok.

[TallBlondJohn]

It would help if the OP could post examples of what he would prefer. As other posters have pointed out, the counters can show (via hot key) other factors such as ID and "soft factors" like morale, fatigue, command load etc.

The counters need to be simple to show what you need to see (attack/defend + movement) when zoomed out - which is where you will be most of the time. If you don't like the icons, there are mods which are very easy to use - they just replace the game graphics files.

[MarkShot]

@Zovs - you changed your fonts to bold? I noticed the truncation. But what about all the little numbers in the CR and other displays?

---

I am okay with the counters. First, there isn't that much more space to cram info on them. The info box which you can set in the corner and various boundary highlights seem to get the job done. How are you going to get everything from a complex system all at the same time on a counter?

I am not am not a BG player (old enough) or a professional war gamer. However, I was professional systems designer, and the UI of this product rivals targeted ease of use of any commercial or custom decision support and trading platforms I developed or worked with during my career. What I am saying is the design is up to the standards done by 10 people and costing $1,000 seat. The only issue is little flakey screen artifacts which appears to be internal design standards which I have spoken to Joel about. This mainly arises when code has multiple in and outs to these pop-up screens. You do something on one code path that you didn't do for others. As a rule, view the pop-up display as a room, there should only be one door in and one door out. I mean in the code; not the UI. Unfortunately, I suspect the code mimics the UI and there are quite a few small glitches. But still this is one superb UI design and piece software, I am not even talking about the model Gary spec'ed out under the hood.

Staufenberg44, I respectfully disagree.

[Zovs]

@Zovs - you changed your fonts to bold? I noticed the truncation. But what about all the little numbers in the CR and other displays?

---

I am okay with the counters. First, there isn't that much more space to cram info on them. The info box which you can set in the corner and various boundary highlights seem to get the job done. How are you going to get everything from a complex system all at the same time on a counter?

I am not am not a BG player (old enough) or a professional war gamer. However, I was professional systems designer, and the UI of this product rivals targeted ease of use of any commercial or custom decision support and trading platforms I developed or worked with during my career. What I am saying is the design is up to the standards done by 10 people and costing $1,000 seat. The only issue is little flakey screen artifacts which appears to be internal design standards which I have spoken to Joel about. This mainly arises when code has multiple in and outs to these pop-up screens. You do something on one code path that you didn't do for others. As a rule, view the pop-up display as a room, there should only be one door in and one door out. I mean in the code; not the UI. Unfortunately, I suspect the code mimics the UI and there are quite a few small glitches. But still this is one superb UI design and piece software, I am not even talking about the model Gary spec'ed out under the hood.

Staufenberg44, I respectfully disagree.

Here is a screen shot or two of the CR on my end.

1.


2.


3.


A direct link to 1 to see it better:
https://i.imgur.com/VSh9Zzd.png

Seems fine to me for the most part. (My eyes are a bit older and the font and size I select work for me, it was a a free font I downloaded and I tweaked the size to suite my tastes, so YMMV)

[MarkShot]

You are at 4K at 29", correct? I am at 32" at 1080p. I am okay, but curious. I even had custom glasses made for this exact focal length.

In any case have you posted this as a mod somewhere? I would like to try it.

Thanks.

[MarkShot]

I got it now, you are going to have more space between report columns at 4K; it is more likely to run together at 1080p. Well, don't go to any trouble. I will probably stay with what I have.

The mod I found most useful was the darkening of the USSR's Red background; I think it is DK's.