SAM Defense problem

[chrispman]

I have trouble understanding how SAM defense works.
See attached savegame, there is a Patriot and an Iron Dome bty next to each other. A bunch of Iskander missiles are incoming from the east and are detected by the E-3A.

Both SAM batteries are under EMCON, with setting 'Ignore EMCON Under Attack'.

The Patriot switches on its Radar when the Iskanders are approx. 170nm out and start firing when they are in range.

The Iron Dome just sits there an does nothing.

Any help would be appreciated, I am sure I am missing something.
(build 1307.1)

[Schr75]

Hi chrispman

This looks indeed a bit weird.
For some reason, the Iron Dome never goes defensive, so it never turns on its radar.
If you turn it on manually, it will start shooting. I tried deleting the Patriot site, but it still stayed passive and didn´t shoot.
The only way I got it to engage automatically was by grouping it with the Patriot. This way it went defensive when the first unit in the group did, and it engaged as expected.

I´m not sure if this might be a DB issue or I´m just missing something obvious.

Perhaps a Dev should look at it.

Sorry, but that´s all I have.

Søren

[chrispman]

Thanks for taking a look at it!

[chrispman]

I just revisited this (in Steam build 1328.9).

It looks like the self defense range for the Iron Dome Tamir missile is set to 2nm be default. But it minimumm range is 2.6nm.
That's maybe the reason its not engaging.

[kevinkins]

I can't to get the Iron Dome to engage. Don't see an air sensor ring even with radar active and ROE free. I have not play with CMO over the summer so it must be pretty basic. If someone has a moment, check my settings. Thanks.

[BDukes]

I can't to get the Iron Dome to engage. Don't see an air sensor ring even with radar active and ROE free. I have not play with CMO over the summer so it must be pretty basic. If someone has a moment, check my settings. Thanks.

D mentioned this in another string but the issue is the weapon's type is a rocket and the game isn't yet configured to allow engagements against that weapon type.

M

[BDukes]

I have trouble understanding how SAM defense works.
See attached savegame, there is a Patriot and an Iron Dome bty next to each other. A bunch of Iskander missiles are incoming from the east and are detected by the E-3A.

Both SAM batteries are under EMCON, with setting 'Ignore EMCON Under Attack'.

The Patriot switches on its Radar when the Iskanders are approx. 170nm out and start firing when they are in range.

The Iron Dome just sits there an does nothing.

Any help would be appreciated, I am sure I am missing something.
(build 1307.1)

This one is probably db related.

Patriot has a fire control radar which the game likely turns on automatically.

Iron dome has a search radar that it also uses as a FC. It didn't turn on automatically (probably not meeting the coded criteria to do that) so didn't turn on and engage. I had to manually turn it on.


Mike

[chrispman]

Ok thanks for the feedback.

[kevinkins]

Seems to me the simulation of Iron Drone is inaccurate - or even not simulated at all. It's understandable why guys might want to sandbox given world events. I thought my settings had to be off. I still think they might be. If my settings are fine, is the radar signature of small rockets not being detected within the sim where should be in real life. Thanks.

[LordAldrich]

C-RAM (to be explicit: counter rocket, artillery, and mortar fire) is not implemented by the simulation yet. No combination of settings will allow your iron dome to engage unguided rockets.

There are other threads mentioning that this is actively being worked on by the devs (starting with counter rocket fire), as it's obviously become a major component of air defense over the last several years.

[kevinkins]

OK, thanks for the answer. I guess it's in the DB to get things started. Too bad given the ongoing situation with Hamas. Better to get it right than to wing it.

[LordAldrich]

Yeah, it's a bummer, but given recent events I'm sure the devs have it prioritized on the "sooner" side of "sooner or later"!

And yes, the database definitely has a variety of values for things that aren't working yet but they intend to implement eventually.

[kevinkins]

I wonder if the pro version has the C-RAM technology implemented but the code remains confidential but ready to go commercial as soon as allowed?

[Horchata]

Iron Dome can't do ABM let alone shoot down Iskander-M, a maneuvering, penetration aid equipped, hypersonic ballistic missile. If the missile/radar somehow had the specs the warhead size is too small to actually do anything.
Arrow/Davids Sling is the Israeli ABM and would be more equipped to have a chance at intercepting it as Iron Dome is designed to shoot down WW2 style rocket artillery - the system would also work well with small drones and non-maneuvering cruise missiles.

There are a lot of situations in the Ukrainian war where smaller warhead based Russian SAM sites like Buk and Pantsyr have "shot down" a Tochka-U, but part of the warhead or submunitions survive hitting the ground and causing damage like the LST filled with ammo that caught on fire and had to be sunk at Berdyansk or the Donetsk city square massacre. Reliable destruction needs HTK or a large directional frag warhead like the S300V.
The patriot can easily intercept the in-game Iskander because its modeled as only a faster scud, none of the missiles in-game have their "special features" like datalinks, maneuvering and pen-aids.

A lot of the games SHORAD systems are completely broken for various reasons for example they are listed as SARH instead of command guided, only the radars aren't powerful enough to illuminate so even targets listed a "missile" can't be intercepted if the RCS is too low.